Peerless Pinnacle 140 Wiring Help

Tom Asaro

My plumber just finished installing a Peerless Pinnacle PI-140 with 5 zones (One designated for a Peerless Partner water heater) and 2 TACO circulators. One circulator is doing 2 zones and the other is doing 3 zones. Each zone has it's own zone valve.

My problem is that he does not want to do the electrical. I've brought my electrician in who says he'll have no problem wiring it up, but I would feel more comfortable checking with the heating experts. . .

He says all he needs is a transformer, (2) relay switches (one for each circulator), and (4) thermostats. Anything specific I should be asking of him? Does the Partner need some kind of priority? Do I need a control box or something for these components?

Any help or suggestions is appreciated. Thanks!

-Tom

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

No-man's Land

You have a sophisticated system there and unless your electrician is familiar with hydronic heating, I would recommend someone who's more familiar with your kind of installation. There's quite a bit of knowledge required to properly wire a system.

Trouble is, it's cold outside and all the good heating conractors are up to their ears in work.

What part of the country do you live in?

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Paul Rohrs_2

To add to what Alan said,

i agree with what Alan said.

There are several trains of thought on wiring the DHW for priority. If you have a multiple pump relay with one zone dedicated for priority, that is a good spot for the leads for a Dedicated DHW pump. HOWEVER, If that should fail in the on position however, it will not allow the space heating zones to come on until it is corrected. That could mean one cold building and even more, and larger problems.

I like to use a separate single pump relay for DHW so that I can bypass the WWSD feature that most reset controls have, as well as have the XX end-switch leads going right back to the boiler TT. I like to use a multiple pump relay for zone heating (by circulator) and tie the XX end-switch back to the Mix-demand or Heat demand terminals of my outdoor reset, VSIM control with 24V (powered switch). I have never had any problems with this setup. Tekmars website has several drawings available with these setups.

regards,

PR

kevin coppinger_4

why not use...

A couple of Taco zone valve controls. Very straight forward. kpc

Tom Asaro

I'm in NJ, Alan. We've been lucky the past few weeks with warmer than usual weather, but it can't last forever. . .

Tom Asaro

Taco zone valve control/switching relay

Someone e-mailed me with that suggestion.

I have 5 zones - Four for heat and one for the indirect w/h. Each zone has it's own Honeywell V8043E zone valve. Two heating zones are on one Taco 007-F5 circulator and Two heating zones + the indirect w/h are on a seperate 007-F5.

I know the electrician picked up two Honeywell switching relays (H-R845A) today and a transformer (but nothing is installed yet). I think this will get the system to work, but it's not really what I want, is it?

Doing a little bit of research, I came up with the Taco SR506:

http://www.taco-hvac.com/Brochure.126/web_detail.html?Product_Group_ID=SR506-EXP&current_category=60

and the Taco ZVC406:

http://www.taco-hvac.com/Brochure.125/web_detail.html?Product_Group_ID=ZVC406&current_category=61

Is this the way I want to go?

-Tom

Tom Asaro

Paul,

Could you please post the url to the Tekmars website?

Thanks,
-Tom

kevin coppinger_4

why two....

sets? Why not just 1 circ and 5 zone valves? If you still want to do it that way you will need two zvc controls and a Taco sr502 relay. kpc

Mark Hunt

I hope


he piped it Primary/Secondary with the correct size pump.

Mark H

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Wethead7

Couple of pictures

Tom acouple of picture would help. The others or Myself could have a better ideal of what you have going on. From my experance electricain's do very bad jobs on these type systems. I have seen then burnout the controls repeatedly.

Paul Rohrs_2

Pinnacle Wiring

Here are a couple of pics (Visio) for a job we just completed using a Pinnacle 199 and a buffer tank. The main zone of heat has 7200 linear feet of 58 pex and is going to keep an HVAC shop very warm as they fabricate. (I love the irony) The smaller zone is for 8 future offices that are being framed. We are going to use the Oventrop Unibox ET so that each office can be controlled individually. I will have a Pressure Bypass to assure flow through that particular secondary loop.

I wanted the buffer tank piped in so that when the main bay is not calling for heat, the zone of offices would not short cycle the boiler. For this reason, I am using an aquastat and its adjustable differential to control the boiler via the TT. It is all working flawlessly.

Your setup is a little different in that you have a zone for High Temp. (DHW) This is all low temp slab on grade and I did not need any other controls.

Hope this helps a little.

Regards,

PR

Tom Asaro

Photos

Here are some photos of the boiler. The 5th zone is capped off because the water heater hasn't arrived yet. Hope this helps a little - It's getting cold

-Tom

kk_2

it could work...

Tom,

After looking at the diagram in Figure 6.3 in this document...

http://www.peerlessboilers.com/home/_images/user/products/IOM_pinnacle_man.pdf

... I think your electrician probably CAN make your system run with the components he listed for you (a transformer, 2 relays, and 4 thermostats). However, I'm guessing that it won't have priority for the DHW. I think he'd need one more relay for that.

BUT, I think the end result doing it that way is going to be a junction box full of wires (and relays) that will be very hard for the next guy that comes along to decipher. If that is the way he does it, I would make sure he thoroughly documents exactly how he wires it.

If you went with a pair of Taco zone valve controls (at least one of them would need to have priority capability) the end result would be much easier to understand, in my opinion. I think you could have the priority control drop power to the other control when the DHW zone activates. There is a relay in the priority controls that could do that for you.

I hope you get warm soon!

Tom Asaro

Now that I've researched it a bit, I see that he *should* have put the four heating zones on one circulator and the DHW zone on a seperate circulator. When I asked him why two circulators, his reasoning was that if one malfunctioned, at least there would be heat *someplace* in the house.

Well, now that it's all piped, should I just leave it as is or change it?

I'm still studying the Taco ZVC and SR manuals to see if I can leave it be and still get the desired functioning.

Mark Hunt

It's piped wrong!


You will have HUGE problems unless that piping is corrected.

It has to be piped Primary/Secondary with a Taco 0010 or equivalent as the primary pump.

I wouldn't even try to fire it like it is now.

You better get your plumber back or find someone who knows what they're doing.

Mark H



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MikeR_3

How many transformers?

Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't you need an additional transformer? I thought you could only connect 3 zone valves to each transformer.

Robert O'Connor_3

transformer

Hi Mike,
All depends on the VA of the transformer

Tom Asaro

I was hoping I could use two Taco ZVC's (see below) but am still trying to figure out how to fit the circulators into the mix. . .

kk_2

Tom,

I think you could just use the "Extra End Switch" on each of the ZVC404's to switch the appropriate circulator. Neutral goes to the circulator, hot goes to one terminal of the end switch, the other terminal of the end switch is the switched hot to the circulator.

-kk

DaveGateway

circs

Why hasn't anyone suggested going with 5 circs & an argo relay?

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Cliff Brady

Time to get out the sawzall

and pipe it P/S with a 0010 or 0012 or 0014. Hopefully most of the zone piping and valves could stay intact. Too bad the plumber didn't put unions on the supply and returns. A good time to get rid of the galvanized too.

Tom Asaro

I took a closer look at the piping... There are 3 heating zones on one circulator and one heating zone + one DHW zone on the second circulator.

Should I just have the plumber put all four heating zones on one circulator and leave the DHW zone on the second circulator (with priority).

Also, are the Taco 007's ok or should I have him switch them for 0010's?

Steve Thomas (Foley Mechanical)

Piping (Flag)

I've seen alot of guys post this already. YOU NEED TO PIPE THIS PARTICULAR BOILER PRIMARY SECONDARY IF YOU WANT IT TO WORK AT ALL. Look at the installation instructions. They have a recommended piping method,use it buddy. In my opinion you should zone w/pumps. You need a 0010 on the primary.

Cliff Brady

P/S With zones, yes but

but munchies work great feeding gravity fed cast iron rads directly with dhw on priority.

Floyd_5

Thanks Mark!!!!!!

I saw that pic this morning before I left the house and didn't have the guts to say anything......I ripped into that other guy about the Ultra, BUT this one is even WORSE!!!!!!
I gonna save those pics as a perfect example of what not to do, virtually nothing is done right.
Doesn't anyone read directions anymore?????
They'll be the next one's posting here about those damn Muchkin's and how they don't work for **it....

THAT one is a definite do over.......

Floyd

Tom Asaro

I appreciate all the comments, now I'm asking for a little advice:

What do I do now? I am a homeowner that likes to know how things work a little more than the average person... What's that saying - Jack of all trades, master of none... Anyway, my above-average interest in the boiler has uncovered that it is actually installed incorrectly, however I am by no means knowledgable enough to debate the fact with the installer.

As a contractor, what is your standard practice here? Do you go back and fix it at no cost to me? And if you installed it incorrectly the first time, what makes me so sure it will be corrected? Do I ask for a refund and find someone more competent? Should I get a "consultant" to tell the guy how to fix it?

What a mess. . . and still getting colder

-Tom

kevin coppinger_4

let me ask.....

if you go to the htproducts web site(under sample jobs) they show some of their boilers piped non-primary/secondary....This is especially true of the 80M...whats up w/ that..kpc

Floyd_5

Good point Kevin...

But if you go to the manual, pages 25,26 there is a bypass valve there with the stipulation that it allow a minimum flow of at least 3 gpm.......

Maybe the munchkin man can enlighten us......

Would think that there would be some much beter examples out there than what are pictured.....

Robert O'Connor_3

Kevin & Floyd

I don’t want to confuse the issue, I looked at four HTP’s pics they all were non pri/sec . I know you have to evaluate each job individually , and there has been a learning curve, might be time for some new pics. Also they were pumping away, doesn’t HTP want you to put the pump on the return now because of the boilers pressure switch?

Bob Bona_4

I totally agree

w/ Mark. Not only that, but there is too many zone valves on one pump.

Just cause she looks straight don't mean she'll fly right..

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Bob Bona_4

if the installer had even glanced at the installation instructions, the outcome would have been better.

I would use them as proof that you need it piped EXACTLY as Peerless, er, HTP wants.

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Bob Bona_4

thats because

the 80M has a lower flow requirement than it's bigger brethren.

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Mark Hunt

Bob got it


The 80m units only require the equivalent of a 007.

The 140's need 0010 and the 199's need 0011.

Galvenized pipe for gas piping is against code, there is NO air elimination, the expansion tank will probably snap the 1/2" pipe, the temp/pressure gauge is not even in the flow.

Mark H

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jalcoplumb_2

pipe layout

just wanted to send a sketch, my e-mail is down so I thought I would post it.

Floyd_5

Whatayamean no...

air elimination......

He's got like 6 friggin hyvents!!!!!!!

Tom Asaro

As I predicted, the installer insisted that everything was correct. I brought up everything that was suggested to me here on the wall and he came back with the "I've been doing this for 20 years" bit. He insists that if we fire it up it will run flawlessly.

He even lied to me about the circulators. He said that the Pinnacle came with one (007), so he bought the same one to match. I know for a fact that the boiler does not come with one.

Anyway, I gave him the manual and a few piping diagrams to go home and study. I have to wait and see what he comes back with in the morning. I have a bad feeling that I'm going to have to eat the money I've already paid him and get someone who knows what they are doing to come in and clean it up.

Thanks for all the help!! Especially Joe and Mark. Will keep you posted.

-Tom

jalcoplumb_2

Galv. pipe ...

is what they require at the shore so I am told. I have done a couple of jobs at the shore and three is Galv. all over. I think it is for only outside work though.

I have not had any reason to check into it. I never had to do gas pipe there.

Goes aginst all I was taught. Told it has to do w/ the salt air and steel.

At least they don't use bushings.

Mark Eatherton1

Doing it right the first time...

is MUCH less expensive than doing it again. Just because he's been doing it this way for the last 20 years doesn't make it right. If the equipment is not installed per the manufacturers literature, it is NOT correct.

Was a permit pulled? The code authorities should weigh in on this FOR YOU. That is what we pay them for isn't it?

If this were my job, and I screwed up this badly, I would change it out at no additional cost. He should do the same. He should also take time to read the installation instructions and learn how to do these new boilers the right way.

JMHO

ME

Tom Asaro

Permits were pulled. . .

Yes, permits were pulled. I am actually doing a second floor addition and decided to replace the forced hot air system with baseboard radiators.

This is a very good point... Does the boiler itself need to be inspected at some point? Is that included in the final plumbing inspection (I've already passed rough plumbing)? Should I convince the inspector that it is installed incorrectly so that he is forced to fix it?

-Tom

Mark Eatherton1

Many times...

the inspectors in our jurisdiction REQUIRE the installation manual be present at the time of their inspection. This is to aid them in making sure that the device was installed to the manufacturers specifications. I think it would be a good idea to talk to the inspector and let him know of your concerns. He is there for your protection after all...

You ARE paying his wages, aren't you.

Unfortunatley, it could turn against you. If he turns down the heating inspection, and the contractor refuses to make it good, it could cause your final certificate of occupancy to be held up.

Kind of a Hydronic Catch 22.

On the other hand, if he does turn it down, and the contractor refuses to make good, you might be able to convince the local D.A. that the contractor is a fraud and have him prosecuted as such.

I guess it boils down to how much pain you're willing to endure to make things right.

The manufacturer of the device will void your warranties if they see it improperly installed, and that's not a good scenario either.

Good Luck, and let us know how it goes. You might try Find A Contractor for your area and see what pops up.

ME

Mark J Strawcutter

007

Sounds like the guys around here who consider the 007 a "universal" circulator.

Mark