boiler and fuel opinions??

DIY Homeowner

The house pictured was not that old, less than 5 years. The 275 gallon tank was in the basement. It leaked (seam split), and the rest is depicted on the photo.

So, the moral of the story, your tank doesn't have to be buried underground, and it doesn't have to be 50 years old, in order to fail.

Everyone storing heating oil (kerosene) at or in their house should carry insurance the specifically covers such occurances (check your policies, folks!!). Spills like this are not all that not frequent (thankk God), but they happen more often that one might think, and this could happen to you.

Dave_22

Opinions?

I bought a house with electric BB and want to convert sometime in the future. My options are oil or propane. Last i checked they were priced close to the same (Western NY). I plan on having some radiant,HWBB,and an indirect HWH. 5 zones in all. I do not have a chimney. I really like the munchkin from what I read and also have a buddy with 1. I also realize oil has a higher BTU value and isn't is dangerous. Could I have the tank in the garage and run a line to the basement? I would need a direct vent which i think would limit my options. 2,000 sq. ft, 1 story with a bedroom above garage. What would you guys do? what boiler suggestions? Thanks-

[Deleted User]

Dave, Go with oil (my opinion) more BTU's, lower cost than propane. Research the munchkin a little more. The munchkin is not available in oil and was really designed for lower supply temperatures, ex. Radiant floor, snow melting ect. Take a look at the german boilers specifically Buderus G115 series. The Germans produce a direct vent oil boiler that uses the burner fan to exhaust the flue gasses, a very simple design. I have installed many of them without a service call. Go ahead and put your oil tank in the garage but think about your oilman's ability to fill it. You may want to call your oil company and make sure the delivery men are over 5 ft tall. Mike

Dave_22

I,ve looked at the Roth double wall tanks- they look pretty nice. I think the oil comp. would supply a tank- just not sure what type. What would a good size tank be? 5 people in house, heat loss approx. 50,000BTU/Hr. at 10deg. How is the G115 at low temp returns? Is it cast? Do any of the oil boilers modulate burner flame? Thanks again.

joe_14

tank and boiler



you can put up to 660 gal of storage inside per code. common tank sizes are 275 gal or 330 gal.
as for the boiler the buderus g115 boiler is an excellent choice. it is a cast iron boiler that has no problem seeing low return water temps. also you can get this with an ecomatic control which is a very user friendly outdoor reset control.this will help in giving you max. eff.

good luck
joe.g.

hr

Factor in

the efficiency of equipment available. Plenty of LP fired boilers in the low to mid 90% efficiencies. It's not just the BTU content of the fuel.

What is the most common fuel in the area?

hot rod

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Dave_22

Probably most have propane or I just see the tanks all over. I like the propane because I would like a small wall hung boiler (space is limited) and I would like to possibly get rid of my pellet stove and replace with a gas stove. Hmmmm..
decisions, decisions......

kevin coppinger_4

Dave...

I have never seen an oil co. rent or give away a tank before... if they did I am sure it would not be a Roth...big bucks, although very nice. As to the heat loss I would figure to 0F or -10F. +10F for NY state is too high. Oil generaly does not have modulating burners...What are you planning for heat distribution? If is just baseboard low temps are not a real concern unlees you are doing outdoor reset and then most controls have low temp. protection...kpc

scrook_2

oil vs. propane

1 gal of #2 oil has about the same BTU content as 1.5 gal of propane. OTOH you could (for additional up front cost) go to 90% vs. 81-82% propane equipment or 84-85% oil equipment, so the efficiency adjusted ratio starts looking like about 1.4 to 1.35 gal not 1.5 gal of propane vs 1 gal #2.

The big swinger will be historic regional propane vs oil pricing (I assume nateral gas is unavailable). Propane though may have the added attraction of being able to be used for cooking and cloths drying too, even if it is more expensive per BTU after allowing for efficiency differances.

Last is the fuel storage space issue, propane will require an external tank in your yard, oil will require an (ideally) indoor tank in your cellar or utility space, though an outside tank in a tank shed is possible -- which (if either) is preferable for your particular situation?

Dave_22

You right it wouldn't be a Roth tank for sure. I am planning mostly low temp radiant with a BB zone in the basement. We don't always go down there and I have a huge woodstove down there that gets it up to 90 deg! But when it's not cold enough to burn- i would use the BB. And yes- I would like to do an outdoor reset.

Paul Mitchell

OIL OIL OIL

Tank in garage ok
Energy Kinetics boiler will direct vent just fine

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Jack_23

Benefits of modulation

My experience on this has been with dV gas wall furnaces. Both units over 80%. One fully modulating gas valve/blower vs single stage burner/blower. Customers have said they have seen as much as a 35% savings with the modulating equipment comparing bills and correcting for degree days.Not a clinical study but this info has come from customers. If you overlay those kind of savings in the oil vs gas choice the difference in btu value jsut got equalized (140kbtu for oil X .7=98kbtu vs. 92,000for lp and 100kbtu for Nat'l) From a technology standpoint gas is eating oil up. Too bad...but, we need modulating burners for oil also! Where is that technology?

AKO

Scrook is right, the numbers don't generally work out to make propane a good choice unless there's another reason driving your choice for propane.

The marginal increase in efficiencies available with propane-fired boilers does not make up for the higher fuel cost.

Mark Eatherton1

Oil fired Munchkin....

Not being an oil man, I haven't the faintest idea what I'm talking about, but I did run across this one day whilst surfing the web...

http://www.htproducts.com/literature/lp-115.pdf

ME

Dave_22

Hmmmm

Just talked to a fuel supplier- $1.19 lock in for propane and $1.39 for oil. Narrows the gap a little!

Guy_5

Munchkin

Actually , the Munchkin is equally at home with higher temperature and low temperature loads. The high temp. loads tend to cool more quickly, therefore causing more condensing to occur, adding to the operating efficiency.
The oil fired Munchkin is on the way.

Dave_22

Price...

Between the difference in price and the difference in efficiency- It would seem that propane and oil would be about the same cost wise ($1.39 vs. $1.19 and 85% vs 94% efficiency). Any thoughts???

Unknown

one more factor

oil has 140,000 BTUs per gallon, and LP gas only has 92,000 BTUs per gallon.

Noel

Dave_22

I've considered that....

What I come up with is:

$1.19 would get me 119,856 BTU's of oil (140,000BTU |139 cents per gal.= 1007.2 BTU per cent X 119)

When I break the price down to BTU per cent, I can see how many BTU's I would get for the same $1.19 gal. of propane. Now it is 119,856 BTU vs. 92,000 BTU.

If i use 84% efficiency for oil and 94% for propane, i get 100,679BTU vs. 86,480 BTU. Still a little off, but not as much as once thought. Now how about modulation???

DIY Homeowner

Other costs to factor in

Let's not forget the additional cost of the yearly tune-up on the oil fired equipment, and the need for separate, independant insurance protecting you and your investment (house) from the potentially costly clean-up of oil spills. I am sure some folks here can recount unpleasant stories they have seen with respect to the clean-up of spilled oil.

The oil tank should be put inside the conditioned envelope of the house. Oil tanks that are sujected to changes in temperature over the course of the winter tend to collect water condensation in them.

AKO

If you work through the numbers:

Oil is $1.39 for 140,000 Btu at 85% efficiency which yields $0.0116 per MBtu.

Propane is $1.19 for 92,000 Btu at 94% efficiency which yields $0.0138 per MBtu.

The outcome is that propane is still about 18% more expensive to run than the oil system on the basis of the rated efficiencies. And that's without factoring in first cost considerations.

Modulating burners and part load efficiencies are another matter, and probably more than we want to solve here.

If you think you'd like to spend the money on a setup that's different, go with the propane and don't look back. Otherwise, out of respect for the KISS principle, oil might still be the right answer -- it was for me when I looked at it, and I was really trying to find a reason to justify a high efficiency condensing boiler.

Dan M

My ma has oil and I have propane . In the last few years her price has really jumped around while my has gone up incrementally This year I contracted .99 Gal for propane while shes way over a dollar. I think I would also take a good look at the price/gal history as well as the BTU stuff, with the recent "Fake" shortages and covienent refinery fires we get each heating season it could be a wash.

GaryDidier

longevity

Dave,
Another consideration would be the design life of the chosen system.When you factor in the life expectancy of gas[10-15 yrs] vs. oil [25-30 yrs]. This adds another dimension to the equation. And, yes an oil spill can be messy and expensive to clean up but a gas spill??? What might that cause?
Thanx, Gary from Granville

Joe_13

Jury still out

on the 90+ gas boilers, but I would assume you should get 15-20 years if well maintained. A Roth tank should last 100 years+ in a basement. I'll bet house explosions with nat gas /lp way out number any in house oil spill. I'll take the inconvenience of the oil leak smell and mess any day with the extra safety factor.

Uni R

boiler and fuel opinions??

While a Roth tank should last a long long time that may be moot if legislators or much more likely your insurance company decides that all oil tanks are somehow created equally and you will be changing your basement protected Roth at 20 years just the same as if you had a poorly constructed 14 gauge tank sitting beside the house. My insurance company's current policy is 20 years regardless. And a Dehoust (very similar to the Roth but they have a lower profile model lower than 59") would have looked so nice in my conditioned crawlspace.

Joe_13

Unlikely

The government has enough problems with underground tanks to worry about a 275 gal tank in a dry basement. Probably an indoor tank will need replacement after 50 to 75 years from the gunk and rust buildup clogging the lines before it ever leaked. What are the demensions on the Dehoust 275 gal? I'd want to look at getting one.

DIY Homeowner

If natural gas explosions were as frequent as oil spills, natural gas would kill thousands of people per year, and natural gas would be outlawed.

The reason why gas explosions appear to be more frequent that oil spills, is that an exploding house ALWAYS makes the news. Oil spills ALMOST NEVER make the news.

In my state, natural gas explosions might occur a couple of times per year. Oil spills in residencies happen almost every day (about 250 in the past year).

In a natural gas exposion, your insurance company or the gas company will pay to restore your property, assuming you survive. In an oil spill, you are left holding the bag. Double check your home owners insurance policy - you will see a specific exclusion for oil spills.

I am NOT against oil. I just am not convinced that it is cheaper or safer than gas, when ALL factors are considered.

Uni R

No sweat...

http://www.granbytanks.com/ >English>Products>

Granby is the North American distributor (the Dehoust tanks are made in Germany)


275gal - 28"w*63"h*44"l 185 pounds



190gal - 28"w*48"h*44"l 150 pounds

Uni R

Can't convince me

Too bad there are no good statistics for either available on the web. Although, I would want to judge them far more on severity than frequency.


Gas explosions tend to do a pretty good number on the houses on both sides in urban areas as well as the glass on other houses nearby. Gas explosions can and often do kill people. Oil leaks just stink and do small scale direct damage. Oil is actually biodegrable and has no benzyne which is what makes gasoline storage leaks such an environmental hazard since benzyne is carcinagenic. If you have a combustion venting problem with oil (cracked HX in furnace or what not) you are far more likely to notice it than with natural gas/propane.


I think gas is far more dangerous than oil and that is why I'm going to switch to natural gas. Every day at home I'll have that jittery feeling like I'm sitting on a launchpad. I want to feel like an astronaut!!!


That and my insurance company is making oil tanks a 20 year consumable and the real estate market more wrongly than rightly prefers natural gas. People thinking that oil is messy/stinky can influence purchase decisions here. This is natural gas territory.

DIY Homeowner

Can't convince me, either.

There is a house a few streets over from mine, that was up on steel beams and cribbing for 6 months, while the oil-soaked soil from under house was excavated, soil tested, replaced, compacted, and a new foundation poured. An article in the local paper quoted the building department official who said the cost of the project (house moving, clean up and new foundation) was $140,000 (based on info provided in the building permit application). The home owners weren't living in the house while it was up on blocks, so they were paying for that, too.

Replace your oil tanks, folks !!

Uni R

Excavation

Ed, my point was purely on the safety aspect of gas vs oil. The people in that house never died. I don't know of anyone who has ever died because their oil tank spilled. I have never heard of fuel oil causing a fire and I have never even heard of someone dying because fuel oil seeped into the ground water supply and trust me these are things I'd like to know if they do happen.


Now did they take advantage of this little disaster and put radiant tubing in when they poured the new slab? You should take some pics and post them here.

scrook_2

tuneups

It would be wise to have a 90%+ LP boiler tuned once a year too, negating most of the difference. An 82% non condensing LP boiler you might go every other year.

A 90+ could be sidewall vented if you don't have a chimney (well so could an oil unit, but there is more potential for complications *is* something went out of kilter.)

An oil tank correctly installed (pitched down slightly toward the outlet (bottom not end outlet) will not collect water -- it will go to the sump of the oil filter where it may be removed when the filter is serviced. If water is a great fear you could even use the set up recommended, IIRC,by The Firedragon: at the tank after the firematic an *empty* General 25 oil filter can (to collect any bottom sludge and water) followed immediately by a second one w/ the felt element in it, and install a Garber spin-on at the burner. The Garber will last for years as the General will capture virtually all the crud that doesn't settle to the bottom of the empty sump.

Oil vs. N.G. or (failing that) LP is like religion, PC vs Mac, or even Ford vs Chevy, you'll get strong opinions, but it is not always as clear cut as each side might make it out to be.

scrook_2

oil tanks, fuel costs, etc.

It is also a possibility that the insurance co's or legislature might eventually, if they have not already, (perhaps with the help of lobbying by the mfg's involved) make a distinction between single wall (e.g. oblong steel celler tanks) and double wall (e.g. Roth tanks) for residential fuel oil storage, (as is the case in some areas at least) w/ commercial UST's and AST's used for gasoline, diesel and fuel oil storage). But maybe not. You pay your money now, you take your chances in 20 years. Tough call on this point, however even modest fuel savings may offset this over several decades. It really hinges on the *long term* price history for the two fuels in your region, and other intangible considerations, e.g. tank sizes and locations, other appliances which may use one of the fuels, quality of the local dealers/service contractors, prevaling useage in the region, etc.

See the following info:
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/hopu/hopu.asp

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/hopu/history.html

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/weekly_petroleum_status_report/current/pdf/tablec1.pdf

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/weekly_petroleum_status_report/current/pdf/tablec3.pdf

DIY Homeowner

House on blocks

This is not the house near my neighborhood, but one several towns away where the same thing happended: 275 tank spill in basement, got under foundation, house had to be removed and foundation destroyed to remove contamination. House is located in an area where the groundwater is used as drinking water, and oil vapors present in house presented a long-term risk.

The house in my neighborhood has since been put back down on a few foundation. It has/has steam heat.

Joe_13

Ed,

That was an outdoor burried tank right?

Uni R

Holy chit!

How old is that house? Something stupid must have happened. That wasn't caused by an old oil tank... That's bad!

Thanks for the pic.

kenneth

what about kerosne

In planning a new house, in addition to LP (no NG available here) and #2 oil I am considering Kerosene. Specifially the Monitor instant hot water boiler. This will work at 96% efficiency, direct vent, handle both potable and radiant water needs, and the tank goes outside. It does however smell, any thoughts?

Uni R

Seam split?

And insurance companies want people to get new tanks? There's some folly to that. Thanks