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Using radiant pex for domestic water

Unknown
Unknown
in THE MAIN WALL
Can anyone recommend a good book or maybe a website that goes into detail about heating with radiant walls ? Thanks again .

Comments

  • Unknown
    Unknown
    OK , I am all set to order the parts

    to install radiant in my front wall ( kitchen and living room , separated by a staircase thats all open ) . I was originally going to use Quicktrac and sheetrock over it , but that seemed time consuming , and I know I would wind up drilling a screw through the tubing at some point . So I will be installing bubble foil in front of the wall insulation , and running the tubing in the wall between the studs . The tubing is going to be Wirsbo 5/16 hePex .

    I was talking to a radiant guru who is affiliated with Wirsbo and Wales-Darby and he said to design the radiant wall for about 20 to 25 btus per sq ft of wall heated . I was planning on making the 2 rooms 2 separate zones , or at the least , making them 2 separate loops . Theres a few things I forgot to ask -

    How close on center does the tubing have to run to achieve this number ?

    Also , what is the maximum amount of 5/16 tubing on one circuit ?

    And would anyone know what temperature is needed to get 25 btus per square ? I want to try to keep the wall to a minimum temp , so if I have to run the radiant veritcal to get more wall heated , I have no problem doing that . Matter of fact , I think running the tubing vertical in the wall bays might be easier than drilling a bunch of holes through the studs 8 inches on center . I have to redo the heatloss for the 2 rooms since I rebuilt the wall . I can post the numbers tomorrow if its needed . I'm also going to count up the available linear space that I can use for the tubing .

    My last question - I know I'm going to have alot of leftover hePex . In the wall I am also going to need to run a small line to the fridge icemaker - about 25 feet total . Is it OK to use the radiant tubing for domestic piping ?

    As you can tell , this will be my 1st time using hePex , and my 1st radiant wall . And it started out as just a simple question , but like always , one question turns into 4 . I appreciate any help you can give , thanks .
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 23,398
    most manufacturers

    Check with the various manufacturers design manuals (your suppliers should have copies if you don't) to see how their products should be installed for in-wall radiant applications.

    Hot Rod, Mark Eatherton & others have posted pictures here of installations they've done. Mark wrote a great article on one he did in a Habitat for Humanity.

    To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Mark Hunt
    Mark Hunt Member Posts: 4,908
    HePex


    is NOT approved for domestic use.

    Mark H

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  • Unknown
    Unknown
    I just ordered

    the Wirsbo radiant advanced design suite at their website . I wonder if they go into detail about sizing up wall radiant .

    Yep , I remember seeing those pictures Hot Rod and Mark , and yourself also (?) posted , as well as a radiant wall Chuck Shaw installed in a bathroom using Quick Track . Those pictures were the main reason I am gonna try it in my own home . I did have the original Levitt radiant , and doing in-floor again is just too much to tackle . Thank you Dave .
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Can you be more specific Mark ?

    It's not approved by who ? Wirsbo ? I was on the Wirsbo website looking for info , and they do not specify that he-pex cannot be used for domestic water . But it also does not say that it can be used either .

    Believe me , I will not use it if they specifically say its not to be used . Is the issue the oxygen barrier coating ?

    But from what I've heard , I will need to buy a few hundred foot roll of Aquapex for a 25 foot run to the fridge . If that's the case , I will run that good ol' standby material , copper instead . Thanks Mark .
  • Paul Cooke
    Paul Cooke Member Posts: 181
    Pex vs hePex

    Ron

    Wirsbo HePex cannot be used for domestic water.

    Your supplier should be able to order Wirsbo AquaPex in 20' lengths for you.

    Paul
  • Floyd_5
    Floyd_5 Member Posts: 418
    For crin' in a bucket.....

    Can someone please just anwser the question.....
    I it can't be used... WHY????? What is the problem????
    Pex-a is pex-a... or isn't it???? Is there a problem with the O2 barrier???
    Can someone please give a more technical anwser then the ones like I used to get from my Dad.... "because I said so that's why"

    Inquiring minds want to know?????
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Floyd

    Well said . I know now that oxygen barrier pex should not be used on domestic , but I sure would like to know the why behind it . Can you elaborate more Mark ? Paul ? Maybe someone from Wirsbo ? RTI ? What about pex-al-pex ?
  • Greg Durgin_2
    Greg Durgin_2 Member Posts: 7
    I'm with Floyd

    What's the reason hePex shouldn't be used?

    Greg
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
    it's

    stamped right on the HePex tubing "not for potable use."

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  • Floyd_5
    Floyd_5 Member Posts: 418
    Yeah, but...

    was that just to satisfy some knothead that wanted that so that he would okay the pex for use with heating systems or was there a GOOD reason for it?????
    Seems to me that there is a governmental BS story here!!!!
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Yep , I got the picture

    Just want to know why its not to be used . Hypothetical - say you walk into someones house that had radiant heat recently installed . And the guy who installed it did not know there was a difference between hePex and Aquapex and used the same tubing for domestic water . When you tell the customer they have the wrtong tubing for domestic , they just might want an explanation - and some of them might want more info other than " cause it says it right there on the tubing " . I hate giving partial answers when I should know better .
  • Dave H_2
    Dave H_2 Member Posts: 587
    PEX for potable use

    The main reason why the he-pex can't be used for potable useage is because the testing by the different agencies have not been performed.

    Does that mean that it will kill babies? No, the necessary letters (CSA, NSF,........and the list goes on) are not printed on the tubing.

    Some of the manufacturers may have that testing, take a look around.

    Dave Holdorf

    Technical Training Manager - East

    Taco Comfort Solutions

  • Mark Hunt
    Mark Hunt Member Posts: 4,908
    Geeze!


    Take it easy Phfloid!

    No vast right wing conspiracy here.

    The reason the HePex cannot be used on domestic water is because it's the wrong color.

    ALL domestic Pex is dark green. HePex is dark white, so it can't be used.

    OK?

    Mark H

    To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"
  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928
    I can't be specific but...

    remember that the MANUFACTURER has to pay for testing and approval AT ANY/ALL LEVELS. Such does not come cheaply!

    ANY change, no matter how small, nor no matter if it is a coating on the outside of the tube will require re-testing/approval/certification.

    The STRICT rules in such case have EVERY reason for being.

    Once an exception is made such exception is turned into law--law that is subject to interpretation.

    Machine guns were outlawed by the federal government by requiring a "tax stamp" that the feds refused to issue. The Supreme Court upheld the ruling. Cannibis/Hemp/Pot/Weed was outlawed in the same way shortly thereafter. Since then other items/substances have been outlawed without the formality of the stamp...

  • ScottMP
    ScottMP Member Posts: 5,883
    So if

    We could get a tax stamp for ..... wait what were we talking about again ??

    I am sure the only issiue is the approval testing. Flyods right its the same material. Aqua-pex has no oxygen barrier and there for not to be used for heating work. In most cases the non barrier tubing is less money and no one would use he-pex since it would cost more. There for, no reason to get expensive testing done.

    I think your fine Ron.

    Scott

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  • Earthfire
    Earthfire Member Posts: 543
    small dia pex

    Wirsbo has a 1/4" pex tube and fittings available for icemakers and such. Tube part No. is F1040250 comes in a 100 ft. coil
  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928


    Can't get the stamp without having it in possession and can't possess without breaking the law...

    History Channel has a very interesting program on the subject. Some stamps were actually issued.

    What was the subject again?

    Oh yea. Certification of materials.

    Process may seem strange and have strange results, but it's strict for good reason! Once an exception is made, the floodgates open.
  • cruizer
    cruizer Member Posts: 48
    in order for

    pex to be used for potable, it has to go throught a cleaning process. regular pex does not. the O2 barrier has nothing to do with it.

    the fittings also have to go through a special chemical cleaning procees before they can be potable approved.

    to the originator, if you are so unsure, ask the dealer who is selling you the product. he can tell you what is potable approved and not. if he can't find a new dealer.

  • Dave L_4
    Dave L_4 Member Posts: 26
    using pex for potable

    My understanding is Stadler/Viega's heat tubing is approved for either heating or potable use. Obviously it would be less expensive to use their potable pipe without the o2 barrier for domestic. We do use our tails from heat for misc. waterpiping.

    Dave L.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    I'd rather find out from the pros

    on this website - the supply houses I deal with do not have the best info on this particular product . I also like to have info from the experts who use it in the field - especially the spacing of the tubing for wall heat . That kind of info I do NOT rely on from my supplier .

  • Chris Reak
    Chris Reak Member Posts: 20


    I have a very good friend who is employed at Wirsbo here in Minnesota. I presented the question to him and this is his response as sent by him.

    "Just cost, and listings.

    The only difference between the two is an outer layer that prevents
    oxygen from getting through. If you use auqapex (plumbing pex) on a
    heating system the oxygen would rust out the boiler.

    Now the only issue you have left is the different labeling on the pipe.
    Since the pipe has an outer layer, it must be originally made smaller.
    After the layer is applied, it then becomes the same o.d. as pex
    plumbing pipe. However, it is a different product.

    Since the added process adds cost, it was never intended to be used as
    a plumbing product. So it was never sent to the Plumbing 'Authority
    that have Jurisdiction' ( NSF, ASTM, Hauser labs, UL, ECT) and listed as
    a plumbing product.

    But for those special projects that won't get inspected, it will work
    just fine."

    Thanks
    REAK

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