converting from steam to \"warm air\" (hydronic?)

Boilerpro_3

I have a large old two story (2800 sq ft)in north central Illinois with about 700 sq ft of original windows with the same upgrades as mike has done. My 1962 boiler that is over three times the size that is now needed is still running well feeding heat to cast iron radiation. Until the spike in gas prices, it was costing only 350.00 per year to heat this home with natural gas. Now its about $800.00. Smaller neighboring homes with forced air heat and new 95% efficient furnaces are spending considerably more for heating. Get the system running properly and upgrade insualtion, weatherstriping etc. I too have a large local contractor that tries to tear out every steam system and hot water system he comes upon. Don't do it! You'll regret it and reduce the value of your home. People are beginning to get fed up with the discomfort, high operating costs, and short life of newer forced air systems.... some to the point that they are now getting replaced with hot water systems. A good steam system is greatly preferably to forced air, just ask some older homeowners that have had both.

Boilerpro

sh_2

converting from steam to \"warm air\" (hydronic?)

Hi,

I just bought and am remodelling a 1920's house that currently has steam heating fueled by gas. I was getting some quotes for installing central air and one of the people I spoke with said that my furnace can be easily converted to hot water from steam which would warm air up which would then be sent throughout the house via ducts (I think he called this a hydrnic system).

He said that b/c I'll be heating water instead of boiling it and will have the option of zones I will see a significant reduction in my gas bills.

What do you think? I like the idea of no radiators. And this may be a good way to reationalise the expense of the central a/c since it will pay for itself with the gas heat savings. How much money should i expect to save by doing this?

here is some info on the house: its 2 floors + finished attic - 3400 sq feet total. It was not insulated at all when I bought it - I am having r13 added to all exterior walls and properly insulating the attic and basment cieling according to a formula I found on ornl.gov i should expect to save about $1900-$2000 a year by doing this.

Last years total gas bills were $5600 (scary).

How much more efficient is hydronic then steam? can i expect a 10%/30% reduction?


thanks

SH

Al Letellier

conversion to hydro-air

This can be a wonderful conversion and your comfort level may increase significantly with a new system. Impossible to agree or disagree about the boiler conversion, not knowing what you have for a boiler. If it is sized too large, as most are, the energy savings may not be as great as a new, modern boiler. As to savings, again, too difficult to commment as we don't know where you live, or average degree days, or current boiler efficiency, etc. to anwer your question. It sounds like you may have found a competent contractor. Get another opinion from a reputable firm and gowith your gut feeling.

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Steamhead

I wouldn't convert it

Blowing air is the worst kind of heating system there is. The basic problem is that the moving air makes you feel colder, which makes you want to turn the heat up. Also, this type of system can actually pressurize a house, forcing warmed air out that you've paid to heat. And, circulating air between rooms can spread illnesses- have you ever seen the inside of a duct after it's been used a few years? ECCCCH! I grew up with this inferior type of heat, and will never live with it again.

Hydro-air is not as uncomfortable as the more usual furnace or heat pump, but it cannot approach the comfort level that your radiators can.

Add to this the space that ductwork will take up. Most old-house basements don't have much headroom, and it's much easier to duck under a steam pipe than a huge duct. So you really wouldn't gain much by removing the radiators.

Assuming similar boilers and that both systems are in good working order, steam will equal the comfort and approach the efficiency of hot-water. Remember that in a steam system there is a much smaller quantity of water to be heated. And a steam system won't freeze up in a power failure the way a hot-water system can.

I would do two things: 1- fix whatever problems the steam system may have, which is usually very easy if you know what you're doing, and 2- install a mini-duct system such as Space-Pak or Unico for your A/C. These systems are quite compact, and if you put the A/C gear in the attic the shorter ducts will feet the hottest rooms.

Then enjoy your very comfortable house!

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Retrofitting forced air into an existing multi-floor home can be extremely difficult.

Beyond the difficulty of installing large ducts unobtrusively, the outlets are often located in much less than ideal locations and returns are generally VERY lacking. Worst of all is what will happen to the structure. The damage caused by an inconsiderate plumber pales in comparison to what frequently happens when ductwork is installed. I have seen such damage many times--it is frequently "hidden" and appears years later when floors start bouncing, staircases start tilting and walls start cracking...

While expensive, mini-duct (high-velocity) A/C systems are ideally suited to many retrofit situations. Unfortunately they are not well-suited to combined heat/cool systems in many climates as the heating requirement will greatly outweigh the cooling.

The gas bill last year is scary! Weatherization, insulation is/was your best first step. Do you best to find someone familiar with steam to review your system. Many are GREATLY neglected over the decades. You'll likely save more fuel (and be more comfortable) getting your steam system in top-notch shape than replacing it with ANY form of forced air.

sh

some more info: all the plaster walls in the house (exterior and interior) are being stripped down to the bare studs to apply the insulation. so running the ducts should not be very intrusive. All the radiotors are in bad shape. leaky old with broken valves etc. I wouldnt mind getting rid of them and all the ugly piping inside as well...

i did some reading and this seems to be they way to go. Thanks for the responses here.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

My own house sounds quite comparable. It too lacked insulation, the windows were in terrible condition (infiltration wise) and the 1st year of fuel usage was phenomenal. The hot water heating system was leaky, ugly and clumsy--but even then surprisingly comfortable.

The plaster on the ceilings and interior bearing walls were shot--all was removed.

Why were the ceilings and interior walls bad? Because of the warm air system that had been added (and later abandoned) in the history of the home. Running through the walls wasn't the problem--the problem was getting INTO the walls without causing structural harm. As it was a gravity warm air system there was only a single centralized return on the ground floor and no heat was provided to the attic (unfinished at that time). I'm STILL (eight years later) in the process of properly supporting the structure by removing the "temporary" wood and adjustable posts and replacing them with permanent steel.

I insulated, weatherized and restored all of the original windows to better-than-new condition. While I kept the "original" 1970s boiler, I restored and improved the heating system as well.

Even with all of the walls open, I had to install four separate central A/C systems--3 conventional and one high-velocity. Why so many? To avoid causing structural harm/dropping ceilings/making super-thick walls/strange closets/ugly "boxes" against the walls, etc.

People with a nearby home similar in size "caved" to the forced air people and removed their radiators. Guess what? Their fuel bills went UP and their comfort went DOWN! They sold the house shortly thereafter and I see it AGAIN for sale now.

Meanwhile my fuel consumption has dropped by about 40%, and I enjoy a level of both comfort and control that I believed only the truly rich could afford. And, it is still using the old, hideously oversized, inefficient boiler. The cooling system is highly comfortable as well and electric use is comparatively low.

Try to find a good heating firm to review your system. It's important to find someone familiar with such systems who actually LIKES them and isn't just interested in tearing it out to install air. If truly beyond hope, they will let you know. While this probably won't be the least expensive option it should provide you a lifetime of exceptional comfort.

Yes, I'm "goofy". My radiators are designed to be PART of the decoration scheme. The comfortor "goes with" the radiator which "goes with" the walls, which "go with" the rest of the suite which "go with" the wood and paint which "go with" the floor. Rug you see does NOT go! It's for another room under renovation.

Steamhead

Are your leaks

in the radiators themselves, or the air vents and shutoff valves? If the latter, they are easily fixed.

And look how beautiful Mike's radiators are! I've seen many beautiful radiators over the years, and some really ugly ones completely transformed by stripping and repainting them as Mike has.

We installed a BRAND NEW steam system in a house a few years ago. Like yours, this one was gutted back to the studs.

Do yourself, your family and your house a favor- keep the steam and use mini-duct A/C.

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"