Ultra Boiler

DaveGateway

I just had an ultra boiler installed in my home but now I'm not sure it was the right decision. I picked the ultra because I have a big old colonial that cost about $500-$600 a month to heat during the winter. My old burnham system was making a lot of noise and i was worried about it. I read up on gas boilers and keeping efficiency in mind I went with the ultra. knowing that it was new and untested I was swayed by the thought of those up coming heating costs. Has any one heard of any problems yet? My contractor had a tuff time installing it.I still have dreams with a flashing b18. error code.

Floyd_5

What was his problem???

Can you tell us more about what was happening????
I have had an Ultra installed since May in my house and have had zeero problems... of course it hasn't done much more than make hot water so far....
I have another one in a agricultural application that has run for 21 days so far with out shutting off, we'll soon see how long it will run....
Can you post a pic. of the installation, tey really aren't that difficult, I talked my Uncle through an installation for their Church, and he had no problems.

Give us more info if you can....

LEAD PIPE

ULTRA

The problems were caused by the instalation. The plumber I used was advised by me that the installation process was diffrent from other boilers. I gave him a copy of the manual a week before the install however he obviously failed to read it. He installed the cerculators on the the return and used a 007 pump for the water heater. severl hours of frustration and calls to weil mclain tech help corrected the problem. Naturally after all this he was bad mouthing the ultra and he has me woried that there will be problems with the heat exchanger. Is this true?

LEAD PIPE

ultra

he was telling me that alum. heat exchangers have more problems because of the temp change from the return water. after we put all the cerculators on the supply and got a 0011 for the indirect water heater it worked fine. I got 2 estamates for installing the ultra and gold pluse with 6 zones, one was $2,500 and the guy I used was $1,400. (Northeast prices) I learned one thing The bitterness of poor quality lives on long after the sweetness of low price is forgoten. Any way if some one can tell me if there are problems with the heat exchanger and what to look for when this happens i would appreciate it. I dont have a digital camera so I cant post any pictures sorry and thanks for the help.

Tony_8

if

the directions are followed and flow rate thru the boiler is proper you will have no problem. The aluminum heat exchanger LIKES cooler return temps, it's built for it.

As you found out, you pay for experience and you also pay for inexperience. Or in this case it sounds like ignorance.

DaveGateway

flow rate?

I think everything, plumbing wise, is good I checked every item listed in the diagram on the manual. What is this "flow rate and how do I check it? The pressure gage on the front of the boiler holds steady at about 14 1/2 TO 15 lbs. I have the space heating shut down at 184 degrees. Since the problems were corrected I havent gotten any error messages.

Tony_8

did you use

the circ supplied with the unit for the primary circ ? Is it piped primary/secondary ? PSI has nothing to do with flow. In/Out temps will tell if flow rate is adequate.

DaveGateway

flow rate

Yes the boiler has its own circ, making a loop. It is a taco 0011, I know this because the first one burnt out because the instalation was improper and I had to buy another one. tell me more about the imput/output temps. like i said earlier i have it set for 184 to shut down but the the imput temp would very depending on when the boiler last kicked on, right?

Tony_8

delta t

20-40 deg F. Doesn't take long to adjust itself to proper firing rate for load present.

Justin Gavin

more on flow rates

The flow rate will determine the amount of btu's you are getting per gpm (gallon per minute). The standard is a 20 degree delta "t". The difference between supply temp and return temp is the Delta T. At a 20 degree Delta T you will get 10,000 btu's per gallon per minute.

Example if your heating loss in your home is 90,000 btu's you will need 9 gallons per minute (gpm) of flow to meet the heating demand. Look at your supply temperature (184 you stated). If this is your setpoint and if your demand was 90,000 btus than the return temperature should be coming back at about 164.

The problem with your system is that your boiler is condensing. If you want to really achieve effy with your boiler than you have to increase the Delta T so that you can maximize the boiler and allow it to condense. It won't condense unless you get the return water below the dew point around 105 degrees return.

If you run your boiler at 184 degrees and it is returning at 160 degrees that you aren't condensing and if you aren't condensing you will never realize any savings during the cold winter months over a conventional boiler system.

You can adjust your flow rate to increase your delta "t" buy adjusting the flow with the ball valves on your supply and return lines from the boiler. Just make sure that when you do this that you have adequate flow for the boiler's heat exchanger so no damage occurs. Once your minimum flow is established you can adjust the flow of your system to maximize the savings.

Condensing and low temp boilers only save you money during the fall and spring when you only need the initial heating boost.

You should definately invest in a programmable control that allows setback and outdoor reset (which I am pretty sure you should have already) if not Tekmar and Heat Timer make nice controls that are easy to operate. With setback you can program your system to turn on when you feel you need the heat. Like early morning and an hour or 2 before you go to sleep. Than during the night hours you can reduce temperature and during the day (if no one is home) you can reduce the temp in your home and have it start to warm up an hour or two before you get home.

These controls will save you money and help you maximize your system to its potential.

Good luck and hope to hear how things go for you.



Justin Gavin

DaveGateway

ball valves

so I should close my ball valves on the return slightly to slow down the speed of returning water which would allow more heat to escape droping the return temp?

Floyd_5

Wow....

I wish I had more time to get you through some of this...the error code was a hgh temp. code simply because your flow rate through the boiler was too slow.
You already have outdoor reset built into the boiler... if it was hooked up.....that will vary the temps. of the boiler with the outdoor temps. the SH set point is for 32* outdoor....you should be able to set that well below 184 and still have plenty of heat... play with it and see how low you can go and still be warm, the lower the better....
I have reduced my DHW setting quite a bit and still am making plenty of hot water also.
With this boiler I aam finding that the input and output temps will often only be around 10*, if you have a good flow rate through the boiler....the boiler will modulate down and maintain that.....
You can check in and out temps. when the boiler is running by going into the info program.....
Also you will find that the boiler WILL condense at temps well over 105*... don't ask me how they do it, I just know that mine can be running much higher that that and still be pissing a stream, I know because I have it running on the floor for now just to prove it to myself.....
I would not be trying to slow down the flow through this boiler, it wants to move tons of water through it and will adjust the fire to that....there may be some piping issues yet and I would tend to feel that the problems are there rather than with flow.....
Ask the supplier where you got the boiler if there is anyone else nearby that is familiar with the boiler... as you have found out, no equipment is any better than the quality of the installation and the support that you get with it...

Good luck and be patient..... don't be afraid the call WM tech support for more assistance...

Hope this hasn't confused you more....:-)

Floyd

LEAD PIPE

thanks

all of u have been very helpfull, Floyd my boiler is condensing too because I have a condensing pump that kicks on at least once a day. After the boiler shuts down I hear water running out the bottom into the pump. I do have the thing that mounts outside the house but I didn't hook it up because all my thermistats are electronic and I have them set for higher and lower during diffrent times of day. You think I should lower the output temp even lower? The factory setting is 190 degrees.

Floyd_5

yup, mount the outdoor reset..

it will still work along with the night setback, you may notice some really long run times, but that is okay....
AND, run that 190 back to 140 or so.... that means that when your outdoor thermister says that it is 32 outside you will be running at about 140 supply temps. If you cannot heat the house at that temp. then gradually go up with the temp. untill you can... you will also notice if you pay attention that the boiler will auto mactically BOOST the supply time up after I think an hour of run time.....
The trick with this boiler is to always be running it at the lowest possible water temps and still provide enough heat to heat your house....
I am still playing with mine to try to figure out how much I can set it back at night and still be able to bring it back without having to run the water temps way up... if you get what I'm saying there....I have a feeling that I will be better off not setting back very far and letting the boiler run at the lower temps.to just maintain a stable temp. in the house, ... just have to watch things and prove it to myself....

Floyd

Tony_8

absolutely not

DO NOT CLOSE THE BALL VALVES !

Misapplied information can be ruination. Delta T is not solely achieved in the boiler but also in the emitters. The problem isn't in the fact your boiler is condensing, it's supposed to. Use the outdoor reset like Floyd says. Design temps are only met 5-10% of the year, certainly not all winter. Think about it. How often does it get to 0 deg F ? How long does it stay there ?

Run it according to the manual, not by faulty advice given by someone you don't know, who doesn't understand the equipment and is apparently closed-minded about what they don't understand. Statements about closing valves and ineffectiveness of condensing boilers, etc. are a prime example of the ignorance I mentioned earlier. I probably offended someone, but, if you don't KNOW the equipment and UNDERSTAND how it works don't issue advice about it. Pet peeve of mine.

BTW, condensing temp of Nat. gas is 127F.

Robert O'Connor_3

just checked my manual

it says "efficiency is based on ASHRAE 103 test method, using boiler return temp of 90 degrees, with a boiler outlet temp. of 110".

Man, I think now I should have got the 155 boiler instead of the 240 if I'm turning the settings down so low, I won't go as low as 110. I wish I knew all this before I bought it. One last question. If I keep the factory setting at 190 degrees the boiler heats that zone in 5-10 min. I I set it to lets say 140 and it takes 15 min. to heat the same zone isn't the fact that the boiler is running longer cancelling out any efficiency gained by lowering the output temp.?

Tony_8

no

because it modulates the burn rate down also because it's easier to maintain that lower temp. Longer run time at lower fire is more even, comfortable and keeps the boiler condensing more from the gas. You'll also notice in your manual that the Ultra's efficiency bottoms out at 92.7%.

As far as the size you bought, it should've been based on an accurate heat loss calc. to start with. The 5:1 turndown is your saving grace now. Get that outdoor reset hooked up and use the system to it's potential.

LEAD PIPE

ok

ok, I'm calling the electrition tomorrow to come hook it up. Thanks to everyone for all the help I learned alot from this thread.

Joe_20

Nice Picture

I'm looking to install hydronics in my house. I've looked at the Ultra and it sounds good. Where is the fresh air intake in the picture? Are you just drawing from the basement? More Pictures of good installations would be great!!

Robert O'Connor_3

bummer

http://forums.invision.net/Attachment.cfm?PDRM2568.JPG&CFApp=2&Attachment_ID=5925



I just noticed the picture and If this install is correct my wiring is WRONG. I have the indirect water tank wired to the priority zone on the taca box. In this picture it is wired right to the boiler. Now I know why I was getting the "call for space heating" code when ever my DHW kicked on. Is this something I can fix myself?

Floyd_5

Good eyes!!!!

You are right.... the indirect should be wired directly to the boiler... the boiler will do the priority on it's own and it will also control the modulation as needed when it is making hot water.. as the water reaches setpoint and your differential in the supply and return temps come together the boiler will mod. down.....
Wire both the high voltage (circ. pump) and the low voltage (t-stat) to the specified terminals in the back top of the boiler....setup the setpoint for DHW and you will be in business... the boiler will shutdown the space heating pump and start the DHW pump when there is a call for DHW.
Also by wiring it that way... when there is no call for space heating and the DHW is satisfied the boiler will run a postpurge on the DHW circ. pump before it shuts it down to pull the left over heat out of the boiler block.

Good luck and if you are not comfortable with the electric PLEASE get it done by an electrican.... don't want to be responsible for getting you zapped!!!

Floyd

Floyd_5

Yes, the basement...

for this particular installation I could do that... the basement is wide open and the house is not that tight, that I could get away with it, don't try it with a new very tight construction... also I had to use the chimney to run the PVC down for the exhaust and there wasn't enough room for a fresh air pipe...

LEAD PIPE

I did it

I hooked up the DHW like you guys said and it seems to be working. One thing I did notice while testing it out, A circ. was running for a space heat heat zone and I turned up the temp. on the water heater, I was testing the priority. It did switch over okay but it wasn't very smooth it was kind of like reving an engine a little then putting it in drive, You know sort of like a "slam" is this normal? It seemed to be working okay just not as smooth a transition as one would expect.

Also I set my output temp to 140 degrees but the boiler goes to 150 degrees before the burner shuts off. I checked my settings and they are correct I cant find anything in the manuel on this. any thoughts?

Floyd_5

Hey..

don't have time to play with mine this AM, but will check some things out and get back to you this evening....

LEAD PIPE

thanks

Thanks man, This is the most helpful web sight EVER.

Floyd_5

okay...

the revving you heard must have something to do with the temp. differences that you had between the SH water temp. and the DHW temp. i can imagine that if the SH water temp was at say 130 and you switched to DHW and it was calling for 150 then the blower would speed up for awhile to try to get it there.
I switched mine and it didn't do it, but the temps. were pretty equal.
As far as the over shooting of the temp. if there is such a small load that hte boiler will modulate down to it's lowest point and still has to much poop then it will run over a bit before it will shut down, the pump will stay running and when the temp comes back down it will refire.
I think I remember that you have a 230 and if so you may have more poop there even at low fire than what your DHW or SH can dissipate, thus it will "short cycle" the over run is there to make the cycles a bit longer.
I hope I am still making sense here after a very long day....
time to et some shuteye...

Floyd

LEAD PIPE

The temps are different

But it wasn't a "reving" it was more of a "slam" It wasn't a smooth click, one pump shutting off and click hummmmm another one turning on. It all seemed to take place at the same moment. Kind of like the water direction was moving in one direction and in an instant it was being pushed in another. I dont think it came from the boiler it seemed more like the pumps and water flow. The pipes shook a little bit, just for a quick sec. It wasn't bad that you would say something is deffinitly wrong here but the boiler is so smooth in every other area it seems odd that it wouldn't be smooth when the DHW calls for heat while a circ for SH is running.
Also I hooked up my out door temp switch last night and that seems to be working well. I have the water temp set at 146 degrees at an outside temp of 32 degrees. I didn't want to go to much lower because it there is a call for heat now it will only be an output water temp of 110 degrees, at an outside temp of 50, which seems a little low. At 146 with an outdoor temp of 50 degrees my water output temp will be 120 which seems a little more realistic.

Floyd_5

Okay...

now it sounds like you may also have some piping issuses...
check out figure 8 on page 15 of your manual... the piping should be like that....
if not your going to have problems....correct piping is a very important part of the install....

wish you could get a pic. and post, it would be very helpful....