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CompleteHeat Reliability
Bill NTSG
Member Posts: 321
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Comments
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Question on reliability of the Lennox CompleteHeat system.
I was spending my Saturday night researching the Lennox CompleteHeat system (it has been recommended to us for our new home construction in the Missouri Ozarks). I was hoping I could get help with a couple of questions?
I've found several quite negative comments about the
Lennox CompleteHeat (or no comments at all) from hvac guys and owners on the web. Some owners have really suffered some nightmarish reliability (see http://www.geocities.com/lennoxhm30/purpose.htm and http://www.hvacware.com/user-cgi/hvaconfig.pl?read=2090) problems with this system. My first impression is that the complaints and problems mentioned on the web seem to be far surpassed by the numbers of dealers installing them. So first question, is the newest version of the completeheat forced air heating system worth the added expense compared to a conventional one? My second question regards whether to use Natural Gas or propane and whether the amount of mineral in the water adversely effects how long the system works reliably?. We have a choice of natural or LP . What choice is the proper route? We've also been told the water is pretty hard at our new area.
We've decided to use a forced air system to heat our home although Radiant (the obvious specialty of many of the contractors on the Wall) seems like it would be useful under the tile in the master bath. Is it possible to reasonably branch a small radiant installation to one large master bathroom on a one story home with a basement? Is there an economical way to provide some heat to the one room we've always wished had a warmer floor?
We're in California now (having just returned from a three week stay in Missouri to meet with our builder and subcontractors). We are placing our fate (wise or not) in the hands of a contractors 2000 miles away. Although they do come highly recommended from the many members of my family who reside and do business with these many building trades and contractors in our new home town, I'm still trying to do my best to research the suggestions and get good prices on the many things going into this project. That is the purpose of this message.
I would appreciate any suggestions and guidance you could give me.0 -
How about ,
A boiler with an idirect water heater and if your mind is set on warm air, an air handler. You will have the option of a/c and the ability to do radiant floors. As far as fuel, My choice would be NG. LP has to be delivered and is a bit pricier than natural. (no guessing if you have enough to make it through the snowstorm either) Chris
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Lennox
No comment on the specific product because of no first hand experience. But, Lennox ships all of their gas products set up for natural gas. Any propane applications require a field conversion kit. Not a big deal but one less thing to deal with. In most areas natural or propane is not a choice it usually one or the other. Will you be cooking with a gas stove and using other gas appliances? Natural gas appliances sometimes cost less than similar propane appliances.
A boiler, an indirect water heater, and an air handler would be my choice over the one of a kind can only get parts from a dealer type of product.0 -
Go with...
what the two guys above have said....
you will be much happier in the long run.
A modulating boiler on NG, an indirect, and AH, will give you the best system and you can add radiant....
And, go with American Standard or Trane A/C......
Of course, as has been stated many times here, the installer makes all the difference in the world...... the best equipment in the hands of a jerk makes the best stuff a POS!!!!!0 -
Complete Heat
Funny you should ask as I was on a job Saturday that had a Completeheat.
The customer HATES it. It is the second unit to be installed as the first one could never be set to run properly.
This is an LP conversion and when the thing lights off it sounds like a rifle! The installing contractor and Lennox have never been able to make it stop doing this.
There are better alternatives like the others posted.
Mark H
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Nat. or LP
The newer versions of the completeheat have to be ordered for the specific fuel type,there is no field conversion kit.
0 -
Just about a month ago.
> Funny you should ask as I was on a job Saturday
> that had a Completeheat.
>
> The customer HATES
> it. It is the second unit to be installed as the
> first one could never be set to run
> properly.
>
> This is an LP conversion and when
> the thing lights off it sounds like a rifle! The
> installing contractor and Lennox have never been
> able to make it stop doing this.
>
> There are
> better alternatives like the others
> posted.
>
> Mark H
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 238&Step=30"_To Learn More About This Contractor,
> Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A
> Contractor"_/A_
0 -
Just about a month ago.
Or less.
I was dumping a couple of units at a wholesaler when someone else came by and dumped a CompleteHeat unit. It wasn't that old. I never got a chance to ask about why it was changed out.0 -
Amana
Tried the same idea only with different execution some years ago. It was a miserable failure for the most part. A very good local HVAC company that handled them was put right on the edge of going under thanks to that fiasco. I have a gut feeling that the Lennox thing is just a new chapter in the same book.
Facts, Prognostications and Gut Level Intuitions
1.A good quality cast iron boiler is the most reliable piece of heating equipment you can buy. This includes everything in my humble experience. Furnaces or boilers. A good one will run in the mid 80% eff. range. When you factor in the maintenance costs and shorter service life of a high efficiency boiler and especially a furnace, you find that you are not saving anything as far as out of pocket costs go. You'll pay 5 to 10% more for fuel with the mid efficiency but it will cost less up front and run with fewer repairs. The jury is still out on life expectancy of high efficiency condensing boilers as far as I'm concerned. Even (gasp!) the Vitodens.
2.Spend your dough on making your building airtight and controling your ventilation needs with a proporly sized HRV/ERV. Your builder has way more potential to screw up your new home than the HVAC guy does.
3. No furnace on the market today will last as long as a cast iron boiler. I'd like to hear arguements that this statement is is not true.
4. LP will always be a minimum of 15%-30% higher in price per BTU than natural.
5. I'd just about gaaarraannnteeeeeeeeee! that future heating sources are going to integrate more easily into a water based system than one using hot air to heat with.
6. The lower you can run your water temp in a HWH system the more efficient it becomes. This means radiators or floors are the best choice not high temp stuff like hydro air or baseboard.
7. Look at the percentage of time the system will spend in heating mode vs cooling. If your in Florida, obviously you'd design around the A/C side of things. Stupid not to. If you are living north of there even a couple hundred miles things become a little more questionable. Up here in Michigan, I'll go on record as saying it is insane to design your heating system around it's ability to provide A/C also. I mean, c'mon!! We're talking about something that runs for 2 weeks out of the year??? And people want to sacrifice their comfort in the winter so they can brag about being cool in the summer??
8. This is turning into a rant. Time for my tea, a cookie and a nap. Maybe I won't be so grouchy when I wake up.0 -
Lennox Complete Junk
Here's my 2¢ worth. Lennox has been selling these things for about 10 years. In that ten years they have changed or upgraded EVERY part in these things at least once, due to one design flaw or another. They have had constant problems with rough ignition, that took numerous kits and upgrades to get rid of, and in the case of propane (LP) it can still be a problem. Also can't seem to get the stainless steel tanks to keep from leaking. I have replaced most of the tanks that my employer installed at least once, and one customer who had an original one is on his FORTH tank. Lennox finally decided they have their heads up their gludious maximus when it comes to making water heaters, and now is using a unit made by American Water Heaters called Polaris. I unfortunatly have no experience with the Polaris units, but have heard less then wonderfull things said about them here on The Wall. I'm also worried as I have heard that Lennox is taking these units and "tweaking" them a little bit in the controls and ignition department. Will this make them better or worse? Time will tell, but I'm not to confident. If you want to check out the Polaris units, go to American Water Heaters,click on "browse products" and then go to bottom for the Polaris units. You can also use the Heating Help.com search engine by clicking on search near the top and entering "polaris" or "complete heat" or "Lennox" for previous posts about either of these units.
One last thing to keep in mind, I would be a little concered about the possibility of Legionares (sp?) disease in these systems due to them using the same water for domestic and space heating. Lennox claims that their controls will keep the water in the hot water coil from getting stangnant but after reading a bunch of reports on Legionares disease here on The Wall, I would stay far away from them personally, especially if your thinking of doing some radiant heating too.
You already have the best system suggested here by others, with using a high efficiency boiler, an Inderect water heater, and an air handler with hot water coil inside. This will keep the heating and domestic hot water sepparated, give you the radiant you want, close to unlimited hot water if designed properly, and give you the ability to add more radiant in the future if you desire.
My honest opinion, take the Lennox info you have and throw it away and forget you heard of them. J.M.H.O. tho.
Hope this helps.
Glenn0 -
Ray,
So far , the boys agree that you should avoid this scenerio. Save yourself the headaches. Find a hydronic contact in the area. Don't let him know what you've learned! Let him make the suggestions and go from there.
Seems you'll be able to weed out the good ones from the bad. Chris0 -
> Here's my 2¢ worth. Lennox has been selling these
> things for about 10 years. In that ten years they
> have changed or upgraded EVERY part in these
> things at least once, due to one design flaw or
> another. They have had constant problems with
> rough ignition, that took numerous kits and
> upgrades to get rid of, and in the case of
> propane (LP) it can still be a problem. Also
> can't seem to get the stainless steel tanks to
> keep from leaking. I have replaced most of the
> tanks that my employer installed at least once,
> and one customer who had an original one is on
> his FORTH tank. Lennox finally decided they have
> their heads up their gludious maximus when it
> comes to making water heaters, and now is using a
> unit made by American Water Heaters called
> Polaris. I unfortunatly have no experience with
> the Polaris units, but have heard less then
> wonderfull things said about them here on The
> Wall. I'm also worried as I have heard that
> Lennox is taking these units and "tweaking" them
> a little bit in the controls and ignition
> department. Will this make them better or worse?
> Time will tell, but I'm not to confident. If you
> want to check out the Polaris units, go to _a
> href="http://www.americanwaterheater.com"
> target="_blank"_American Water Heaters_/a_,click
> on "browse products" and then go to bottom for
> the Polaris units. You can also use the Heating
> Help.com search engine by clicking on _a
> href="http://forums.invision.net/Search.cfm?CFApp=
> 2&un=69lpck" target="_blank"_search_/a_ near the
> top and entering "polaris" or "complete heat" or
> "Lennox" for previous posts about either of these
> units.
>
> One last thing to keep in mind, I would
> be a little concered about the possibility of
> Legionares (sp?) disease in these systems due to
> them using the same water for domestic and space
> heating. Lennox claims that their controls will
> keep the water in the hot water coil from getting
> stangnant but after reading a bunch of reports on
> Legionares disease here on The Wall, I would stay
> far away from them personally, especially if your
> thinking of doing some radiant heating
> too.
>
> You already have the best system
> suggested here by others, with using a high
> efficiency boiler, an Inderect water heater, and
> an air handler with hot water coil inside. This
> will keep the heating and domestic hot water
> sepparated, give you the radiant you want, close
> to unlimited hot water if designed properly, and
> give you the ability to add more radiant in the
> future if you desire.
>
> My honest opinion, take
> the Lennox info you have and throw it away and
> forget you heard of them. J.M.H.O. tho.
>
> Hope
> this helps.
>
> Glenn
0 -
Thanks, for that, Glenn
I wanted to say just that but haven't worked with the product for a few years... I worked for a Lennox dealer for 8 years and they had more trouble with those things AND generally ALL of their equipment, being that it was the first HVAC equipment that I worked with I didn't know that there were other brands out there that had MUCH less trouble!!!!
I would now install some of the "ell cheapo" brands before I would ever consider installing "that brand"....
Okay that's my 2 cents worth... now we got 4 cents :-)
Floyd0 -
Re: CompleteHeat advice...Hydronic versus Standard forced air
I want to really thank all of you fellas who answered my post of Saturday night. We've decided to avoid the CompleteHeat thing and probably save us much future grief. Now, since I'm a California guy who has lived in a modest 1600 square foot (forced air natural gas furnace) home. The idea of using a boiler based method to heat our new 3200 single story home in the Missouri Ozarks is still pretty far out there (to us).
What is the differnce in cost/ effiency/reliabilty between "hydronics" and the forced air furnace (especially since we hadn't originally planed on using radiant heat anywhere)
My home here has a two speed Carrier furnace (ac installed at same time) I had installed about four years ago. It has worked very well. I remember when I was shopping for the unit only one of the hvac guys I checked seemed even remotley interested in doing a heat loss calculation for my home. They were only going to do a square footage guess. I did one myself and ended up buying a lower capacity furnace then they were originally "guessing" I needed. They thought I was kinda wierd when I asked for higher efficieny AC unit (13 seer).
I'll close by saying I'm a Macintosh guy, is the debate between Boilers and forced air anything like the difference between Macintosh and PC?
Is one the BMW of home heat?
Thanks again for reading this book I've been writing......
Ray0 -
What do you mean?
Shorter life and higher maintenace on a high efficiency furnace? I'd aurgue that a bit. Don't get me wrong, I like Hydronics, even tho I am primarily a scorch head. But its only 5% of the market in my area. (Its getting better, especially with radiant). Maintenance is maintenace and both systems need it. there are about the same # of components. The life span on QUALITY high eficiency furnaces is very good. I use Olsen in my area and there are still many original high efficiency units still out there((mid 80's)VERY easy to service.
That being said.
Avoid the Lennox. there is 1 in my area as a test. Been 6 months and he's pitching it. Its "CRAP" (his word).
Go with a good boiler, cast is best. radiant get s my vote especially on new construction. Lower water temp=less$$ to heat.
Best of luck
Mike0 -
Forced vs Boiler on the Ozark Plateau...
Mike responded by mail and raised a couple of questions I mention about my hi effiency forced air...
My Carrier Weather Maker 2000 two speed is in the mid 80's effeincy (I think). Maintance has been nil (other then filter changes). Please, if you don't mind, (I know that I'm on a Boiler message board) what is a scorch head? Is that a hydronic installer? Regarding getting a boiler and radiant, my house has a sub-floor and (half a basement already built). They are just getting ready to put on the shingles and none of the plumbing is in yet. When is it too late to go that route? What do you suppose the cost difference is in new construction to go with a Radiant/boiler?
They get two months of really bad weather, but it isn't like Michigan or Nebraska. That part of Missouri is part of the Ozark Plateau (at 1200 feet elevation it makes for somewhat milder winters and less heat in summer, (My wife and were there the last week of August and we experienced the hottest last week in August they had had in five years over 100) :~)).
So the winters may not require more then a forced air heater. I'm just trying to educate myself (a former truck driver turned software company consultant) on Hvac from all angles). Thus far it has been quite a ride, with almost getting that Lennox thing...
Ray0 -
Scorch head
Is a forced air heating guy. Hydronics is water based or "wet head" No offense to anyone..just what we call ourself up here. I learn a lot from this site and am entering the hydronics side more and more.
peace brothers.
Mike0 -
Ray ,
Don't be alarmed....but the initial cost is considerably higher than forced air.The thing we sell is comfort. There will be far fewer "cold spots" in the house.
With radiant heat , your even beating most forms of hydronic heat . Air is a lousy medium for heating. It leads to stacking, and uneven areas of comfort. With radiant heat, your heating objects and mass. It holds the heat longer and tends to be distributed more evenly, leaving few uncomfortable areas.(read:less cycling of the unit). Like I said in the earlier post, if your not put off by forced air, there are options. If you want radiant floors, this is the best way to handle the situation.
The suggestion to get your hot water for the home from the heating appliance was something that has appealed to me for all my time in the field. I see FAR fewer problems with units that run "all the time" vs. a heat only, with seperate water heating systems. (any other comments about this wetheads?)
Coming from the service field, I'm making suggestions that I know are more expensive up front, but will provide comfort and longetivity in the big scheme. I want to see my customers as much as they want to see me. I find that waving while driving by each other is a nice way to see them. Go for it! Get the best people you can find to do and design the system first, then sit back and be comfortable in your "biggest investment". Chris0 -
Lennox CompleteHeat
My Lennox Completeheat has been perfectly reliable for the four years I've had it. It supplies all of our DHW, forced air, and in-slab hydronic heat in our basement. The only problem we had was rough starting, which was due to low incoming natural gas pressure because of a too-small gas supply line.
I hope my good fortune continues! I would say I much prefer the radiant in-floor heating to forced air; I have both. The radiant is so much more comfortable, and uses a lot less electricity. I wish I would have found a (cost effective) way to do radiant in our whole house, not just the basement.
Mark Dorogi0 -
Congratulations, Mark...
it's nice to know that somebody is having good luck with these things. I will warn you that you need to keep a real close eye on your HM30 tank for leakage. Lennox is admiting that they are having problems with tank leaking. I just went to a class on the new generation HM61 Complete units and the teacher actually said that the reason Lennox switched to the new units is because of the tank failure rate. So just keep a real close eye on your tank. Also, you might want to have a tech come out and pull the burner to check, clean and/or replace the electrode/sensor assembly. After four years, your probably about ready for a new electrode, and if you wait to long, the unit starts having delayed igniton problems, or might not even light at all.0 -
Thanks
for the advice! I actually had the service company check out the unit a few months ago and they recommended replacing the ignitor, since after four heating seasons it was time to get a new one. So I had them replace it, but the old one was very clean and hardly worn. We have a very energy efficient house, so maybe the thing does not get too many hours on it. Who knows...
But I will keep an eye on the tank. Is there any way to see ahead of time that it is going to fail? Why do these tanks have a problem - excessive corrosion or something?
Mark Dorogi0 -
unfortunatly, no...
way to tell in advance of possible leaks. Most of the ones I've had leak woul leak from one of the top water line connection where the threaded eyelet is welded to the tank. I have had one and heard of others where the tube in the tank that carries the exhaust gasses from the burner to the exhaust pipe will leak then the entire burner chamber will fill with water and drown the burner. As far as why, I think it's due to Lennox not being able to perfect the art of welding the stainless steel tank.One thing you can do is make sure the water pressure in the tank is less than 50 psi, and if it's more, have your tech install a pressure reducing valve and expansion tank in the cold water line per Lennox instructions to keep the pressure down and reduce the stress on the welds. Otherwise, all you can do is inspect the tank regularly, cross your fingers and maybe say an occasional prayer that it will keep working for you.
Good luck.
Glenn0 -
He right
A good radiant will cost more, but it is more comfortable than forced air. I am seeing more of them in my area.0 -
mike
We do Schorched air and hydronics . No question the good boilers have a longer life span i see 50-75 yold boilers everyday ever seen a furnace that old???
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