Water Heater?

Dave_13

I'm starting to think more and more about using a HWH for my future radiant plans. I could buy 10 HWH for the price of one high end boiler. If it breaks- I know where to get another one! If my heat loss is in limits of the burner output, what are the downsides? Would I ever make my $$$ back if I bought a high end boiler and what if it breaks in 15 years and I have to buy another? Cha-ching $$$$$. Any thoughts? This is also posted in the "condensing boiler" post. No replies.... I know the benefits of new technology, but how many years and how much a month difference - I'm just common folk- I would love radiant, but 10-20 times the price for a modulating,condensing boiler is hard to swallow...

Luke Lefever

The standby losses, and firing efficiencies aren't comparable. There is a substantial cost difference, there is no doubt, but there is a comensurate difference in efficiency. Sorry, there is no free lunch. Some people assume that since power vent water heaters are vented in plastic pipe- they must be high efficiency... not true, just more dilution air to bring the stack temperatures down. I have yet to see a water heater rated in AFUE numbers that allow for direct comparisons to other heat sources. Not to say a water heater is not a valid choice, but you are comparing apples and oranges. Luke Lefever, Lefever Plumbing & Heating, Elkhart, Indiana.

hot_rod

I use water heaters

when they fit the application. Generally under 30,000 BTU/hr jobs. Keep in mind code requiremente in your area. Many water heaters now have labels saying they can be used in closed loop heating applications. That is all the inspectors around here need to see.

I would not advocate combined hydronic/ potable systems. Too many unknowns.

I still sell high dollar condensing water heaters and boilers. I'm not convinced you will have to "throw them out in 15 years" I'd probably just replace the defective part

How often do you replace your computer? Truck? I'm thinking in 15 years there may be better technology anyways.

A $2,500 hi efficiency boiler amortized over 15 years, isn't that bad of a deal considering the fuel savings. Looks a lot better than my $35 K truck, a depreciating asset from minute one!

Actually the components are not that unlike what are on the high efficiency cast or copper boilers, or furnace.

In my book there is room for all the various heating appliances, depends on the job and the customers wants, needs, and desires. Within reason!

hot rod

Geno_14

Look at it this way...

You have to decide for yourself what's right for your situation. Ask yourself these q's. How long am I going to be in this house?, how much fuel do I burn a year now?, how much will I save?,how much will it cost?, how long will the pay back be?. Remember radiant heat is the most efficient and most comfortable but it is more expensive to install along with better, more eff boilers, etc. You may end up putting such a drain on the water heater depending on it's recovery rate that you'll spend much more to run it.
Just food for thought.

Bob Larson_2

Do you ever use electric?

I'm plumbing for a cust building a new house (small), and had baseboards running off an elect WH in her old house, and she loved it. No gas in the new house. She wants a bid. I haven't calculated heat loss yet, but the house is 1200 sq ft. Whaddayathink?

Mark Hunt

One more thing


to consider.

The new water heaters will have the flammable vapor devices on them which will make a simple thermo-couple replacement a more difficult task. These new water heaters will be more expensive as well and you better not forget to clean the screens regularly.

I know of no water heaters that come with a control that allows for resetting the water temperature so you will be maintaing the max temp 24/7 during the heating months.

I guess you could add a few controls to make the water heater act more like a boiler, but you may find that you are approaching a minimal cost difference once all the parts and labor are calculated, not to mention that you will have more things to "break".

Operational efficiencies are not even close.

Mark H



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Dave_22

Thanks for the replies. I would really like to go with a higher end boiler- that would be my first choice. But then I think about the diff. in price (Sorry- i'm no where near rich) and think "if it saves me $15 a month for 5 heating months- that is $1500 in 20 years. Still wouldn't pay itself back. Since I don't know how much a month it could save, I don't know if it would be cost effective or not?? I think my heatloss was 45,000.... I have all elec. BB now.

hot_rod

A couple thoughts

Most water heaters max out about 140F on the temperature settings. A bit low for baseboards. A 4500 watt element equates to about 15,300 BTU/hr. This may be a bit small for your load.

When I use water heaters as a heat source, I leave them stock, for liability issues. I may add a 30 pound relief valve in addition to the 150/210 factory installed T&P. I wouldn't advise changing controls and thermostats!

You might be better off with a small electric boiler. EFM makes an affordable steel/ electric boiler in many different KW sizes.

I also like the cast iron Slant Fin electric boiler.

hot rod

ScottMP

Two thoughts

One - Dave look at the munchkin boiler, Alot of boiler with alot of options. I think you could expect alot more savings than 15.00 a month.

Two - As usuall Mark makes a good point. The new hot water heaters will make it less attractive for use as a heat source.

Scott

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Bob Bona_4

but

don't forget the lifespan of a water heater vs. a boiler.
You will probaly go through 2-3 WH's before that boiler is long in the tooth. Factor that in, and you can see why a boiler is the better choice..Pay now or pay later.

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Mark_17

scale

A gas water heater will scale up when used in a radiant system due to extended run time at low water temperatures. You would need to install a mixing valve to keep the temperature in the water tank higher.
You can always do this, or use an electric water heater temporarily while you save money for a Munchkin. I heated one room (a four season stone porch) with a small electric water heater (a used freebie) for two years while I got the funds together to convert the rest of the house from LP hot air to oil fired hot water.
The Munchkin comes highly recommended.