disconnecting a radiator with no valves?!

Rob Gorbet

(sorry for the cross-post to the roundtables and The Wall; I noticed the missive to post tech questions to The Wall just after I posted this to the round tables...)

--

I am renovating a second floor bathroom. There is a radiator in the room, which I would like to remove in order to make it easier to install the new floor, paint the baseboards, etc.

The radiator is cast iron. As you can see from the photo attached, there appear to be no valves on the inlet or outlet of the radiator. All the other radiators in my home have valves on the inlet (see other attached photo).

Notice also, that the supply lines for the bathroom radiator are copper, while all other lines to other radiators are iron. I checked in the basement, and even the bathroom radiator has iron running up to the bathroom.

This leads me to believe that the radiator shut-offs (if there are any) are inside the bathroom floor. Why they would want to have done that is beyond me.

My question is this: is there a way, and how hard is it, to cut off the supply to the entire radiator system, at the boiler. Similar, I suppose, to shutting off a local check valve to replace a washer, or shutting off the whole house. And a secondary question: if this is possible, will it help?

Thanks to anyone who can help!

Rob.

kevin coppinger_4

I doubt the...

valves are in the floor. They probably just did'nt want to spend 15 bucks on valves and hooked it up as is. You will have to dump the entire system from the looks of the pictures.ADD them in for the next guys sake. Is it hard? For someone who does it all the time,no. How confident are you? Get a competent contractor who is familiar with your style of heating system if you are not comfortable. kpc

Steamhead

Those are some unique radiators

I rarely see radiators with two tappings at the bottom as yours have. The ones I've seen were the older column type, not the large-tube type like yours.

I'd sure love to know who made them! Can you see any manufacturer's info, maybe around the pipe connections?

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

Hey Steamhead

Glad I'm not the only one that finds that tapping scheme unusual!

There is another thread going with similar type of rads.

Are those [black iron] manifolds that look something like Hotrod would make with his t-drill uncommon as well?

Steamhead

Those are cast into the rad section

so you could hook up both pipes to the bottom of the same end of the rad. There is probably also a baffle inside to keep the flow from short-circuiting.

I'm not familiar with those manifolds you're talking about, but maybe if I see a pic- it's been a long day.

I'll check out that other thread too!

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Rob Gorbet

Thanks, Kevin...

...for the message.

So I thought about this:

- shut off the cold water supply to the heating system (it goes into the cold return, before the pump),

- open the drain on the return side of the system (I'll call this the "basement drain"),

- open the bleed valve on the radiator I'm wanting to move.

Would that not ensure that most of the water which drained from the system, drained from the radiator in the bathroom? If I wait for, say, twice the volume of the radiator to come out of the basement drain, would I not be safe in removing the rad at that point?

[I'm estimating that this rad holds between 1.5 and 2 quarts of water. I believe that to be on the high side, but better safe than sorry. Does that sound about right?]

I'm an engineer, but electrical, so I have some understanding of pressure differential, etc, but will gratefully bow to experts if they tell me otherwise. I'm no dummy. :-)

If I do have to bleed the whole system, is that just the same as the above, but opening the bleed valves on all the rads? If I do that, should I isolate the expansion tank before hand, or let that drain too?

Also, my heating system has some kerosene or some-such in it, to prevent corrosion, I'm told. Presumably if I drain the works, I would like to put that back in, but I don't see how that could be done.

In the end, I think that it may be easier just to do a crummy job on the floor I'm trying to install, than move the rad. :-)

Thanks for your help/advice.
Rob.

kevin coppinger_4

rob...

sounds about right except for a few things...2-3 ngallons not quarts of water per rad...I hope there in no K-1 in your system ...proplylene glycol maybe.aka non toxic antifreeze. It sounds like you have a old style expansion tank ,you could isolate it and then it will equalize after you are done a good purge and bleed of the system. Carefully cut the copper so if you have not drained out the rad you will have some time.
Is this boiler also used for your Domestic hot water? if so you won't have hot water unil you are done. As always err on the safe side. Hot water will cause serious burns in seconds. kpc

Rob Gorbet

Hmmm...now you've got me curious. Some info:

The home was built in 1898, and there was an addition put on in the 1930s sometime. The main part of the house now has forced air heating (and cooling), but the rooms in what was the addition are water. So there is both a boiler and a furnace in the basement. I tell you all that, to give you an estimate of the vintage of the rads.

There are 5 rads on the second floor, and they appear to be of three different types. There's one in the bathroom, one in a "sewing" room, and three in the master bedroom/bathroom. Looking closer at all the rads than I have ever looked, this is how I would describe them:

- double tapping at the bottom of one side;

- bleed valve at the top of the other side;

- long-painted-over vent(?) about 8 inches up the side opposite the tappings;

- embossing on one of the ends.

The embossings are "COPLEY GURNEY" on all but the bathroom rad. That one reads "CORONA IMP IRON COMP" (could be GORONA or GORDNA?). They all have similar tappings on them.

The three in the master bedroom/bathroom have five vertical "pipes" in each "fin" (apologies if my radiator terminology is not up to scratch!). The other two rads have four "pipes" per "fin".

The "vent" on the sides makes me wonder if the house was steam heated at some point? I've read that steam radiators typically have this vent part-way up the side opposite the inlet??

I can post pics if anyone is interested. In fact, looking at my boiler today, I was thinking of posting a pic of that mess down there. :-)

I am an engineer by trade (electrical) and fascinated with the history of my older house. Let me know if you've heard of these manufacturers, and when/where they were in operation!

Thanks,
Rob.

Rob Gorbet

> sounds about right except for a few things...

Hmmm...which sounds about right? Just draining a few gallons to empty the one rad, or draining the whole system?

> 2-3 gallons not quarts of water per rad


Oh...okay...

> ...I hope

> there in no K-1 in your system ...proplylene

> glycol maybe.aka non toxic antifreeze. It sounds

> like you have a old style expansion tank


The expansion tank looks like the one in the attached drawing, blatently stolen from the internet. Actually,
not quite: in mine, there are two hot pipes coming from the boiler. One goes into the expansion tank, and this one has a cutoff valve in it. The other goes to the rads. So the joint pictured in the attachment is effectively inside my boiler (I guess?).

> ,you

> could isolate it and then it will equalize after

> you are done a good purge and bleed of the

> system.


Purge and bleed... In layman's terms? Let all the water out, then let it back in? :-)

If I do attempt that, how do I get the propylene glycol back in?

> Carefully cut the copper so if you have

> not drained out the rad you will have some time.


I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this..."have some time"? I hadn't planned on cutting the copper. I was going to undo the nuts at the joint between the copper and the rad. Depending how ambitious I feel, I might put in another valve while I have the rad off, but that isn't the primary goal...

> Is this boiler also used for your Domestic hot

> water? if so you won't have hot water unil you

> are done. As always err on the safe side. Hot

> water will cause serious burns in seconds. kpc


Thanks for the advice. The boiler is off and has been for months, so I assume the water is not hot. The hot water heater is seperate.

Thanks again for your advice!

Rob.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Here's the manifold photo

nm