Radiant Heat at Minimal Cost

Annie Hall

My husband and I are about to start construction on a remodel/addition so extensive that we're essentially building a new house. We're sold on radiant heat. Especially after reading Dan's excellent book on the subject. BUT, I just got our first bid back, and $19,000 for a heating system is a bit hard to swallow. There has to be a way (I suspect MANY ways) we can trim the costs. I have come to you for help.

The Details: We are building approx 2456 ft2, consisting of two stories. Main floor has entry and a great room housing kitchen/dining/living. Upstairs we have a master bed & bath and two bedrooms plus another bath.

The bid we received was from a very reputable but pricey company. It including PEX w/ oxygen diffusion barrier on 6-9" centers, 3 Honeywell zones (downstairs being one zone, upstairs two) and thermostats for room-by-room control, a Burnham SP-3 (62,000 BTU input) 84% efficiency propane boiler, boiler and safety controls (grundfos pumps, spirovent air elim, bell & gossett prv, infloor mixing valve, Armtrol expansion tank) All this and gyp-crete to go over the tubes.

I will be getting other bids back soon, but I suspect they will fall into the same price range.

A friend turned me on to www.radiantdirect.com, which offers lots of information on radiant heat plus do-it-yourself packages. So now I am considering the following cost-saving options, and really need some input/help from experts!

1. Eliminate the gyp-crete and install the tubing under the subfloors. This saves $1.50/ft2 and also makes installing hardwood floors easier, which will be another cost savings. According to www.radiantdirect.com, gyp-crete is a bad idea because it is more likely to result in heat striping and because tube failures do occur and are hard to detect before your subfloor is ruined. I REALLY NEED FEEDBACK ON THIS!

2. Doing it ourselves. I do not relish the idea of spending days under the house stapling up tubing (claustrophobia!). And I'm concerned about the time it will take, since I am also the general contractor on this little adventure. But the packages supposedly come with very detailed instructions and there is supposedly help in troubleshooting. How hard is it to do-it-ourselves?? If we did the tubing, would any self-respecting Heating Pro be willing to install the propane boiler for us?

Sorry this is so long. I'll be grateful for any and all advice.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Food for thought

A 1923 Colonial home similar in size/layout to yours available in kit form from Gordon VanTine.

Cost of ALL materials for home proper (to include cabinetry and all hardware, paint, nails, etc.) save foundation and plaster, with nearly every piece pre-cut to exact size: $2,925.

Cost of materials for warm air heating system for same: $263.80 (9%).

Cost of materials for hot water heating system for same: $722.50 (25%).

Warmfoot

HUH?

Was that back in 1923?

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

Yes, really

"117 House Designs of the Twenties" a reprint of the 1923 Gordon Van Tine (Davenport, IA) single-family kit home catalog, by Dover Press in 1992.

Home number 609, "A Big Comfortable Colonial Home".

Proportional cost of hot water heating systems in smaller, plainer homes was significantly higher!

Dave Yates (PAH)

options

Sticker shock, eh?

Consider partnering with the installer whose judgement you come to trust during this process. We've done this on several jobs and the results have been fantastic. The owners get to put in sweat equity, the contractor selects & sells the materials (meaning they will be happy to stand behind the products) and the owners get a top-notch installation.

Internet companies can't "see" the job site and, therefore, can't possibly provide the expertice your on-site bidders will have at their disposal.

You save money, get high end products, expert knowledge and service - it doesn't get any better than that!

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Gregg Jackson

radiant

I saw your post and, from what I gather, you are at appx. $7.74 per foot installed. This seems like a really good price based on my years of installing radiant heat. i understand the phenomenon of sticker shock because we deal with it on a day to day basis. If this is a reputable company I would stick with them for that number. I would also check the size of your boiler based on hot water heating alone. I am assuming that you have master suite with a big tub? You want to make sure you have enough BTU's to make ample domestic hot water. If you want to salvage some dollars, maybe you could eliminate radiant in the bedrooms where you dont spend much time. Substitute with panel radiators or baseboard. I know most of our systems are well over $10.00 per square foot. If you do decide to go 100% radiant I would opt for a condensing boiler. The first cost will be higher but overall operating costs will be lower. I know budget is always an issue but try to understand that radiant is an expensive option. Trying to staple up tubing is one fo the worst tasks I know of (in my opinion) and we are professionals I've let homeowners do it and very few were glad they did. If someone comes in with a really low bid and allows you to do some work yourselves - you may have trouble finding them at the end of the job. I've seen it happen many times. Especially when it doesn't work properly! Good luck

Gregg

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Murph'_4

At 19k you're not being robbed....

perhaps you need to build a smaller house!! or eliminate some of the niceties you want, these are not cut and dry systems. Pricey uhhhhh how much is it gonna cost to redo system if the cheaper one fails, how much does the kitchen cost compared to a comfort system, you don't have the time so perhaps these "pros" should work for less because why. and to have the owner as GC just throws more fuel on the fire by scheduling mishaps! only tubing failures I have seen come from improper installations or mis-applications. custom homes are costly, there is a reason. And where will them bozos from vermont be after they get your money? lots of bad systems out there, there is a reason.


MJ.

Dave H_2

A different approach

is to not have the entire house radiant floor heating.

The wonderful thing about hydronic heating are the options; finned tube baseboard, panel radiators, coils.....the possibilites are endless and easily combined.

Install Radiant floor heating in the most common used areas (kitchen, family, dinette, baths) and have combinations in the rest of the house.

Check it out, you'd be surprised.

Dave H.

John Felciano

Annie

Without seeing your house or the prints the price doesn't sound too bad to me.

Did any of the contractors explain the differences between the different installations?

Gypcrete is a very common way to install radiant floor heat.And unless you do allot of drilling through your floor after the tubing is installed leaks are very uncommon.

With proper tube spacing and a good design you will be hard pressed to actually feel the difference in temperature between the tubes.

A staple up system from under the floor can work very well too.Again a heatloss is needed to properly design a system.When installing the tubing under the floor as aposed to on top of it higher water temperatures are commonly needed to get the same amount of heat.Depending on the climate where you live aluminum tracking may be needed to supply enough heat to properly heat the room.Simply attaching the tubing to the bottom of the subfloor without track requires a higher water temperature yet.

As youre probably starting to realize there is quite allot to designing and installing a radiant floor heating system.And you certinally can go on the internet and buy all the components yourself and install it yourself, but will it work as well as if a proffessional installed it? Building an addition as big as you are and being your own general contractor is allot of work by itself.Adding the resposibility of installing the heating system to the list of everything else may be bitting off more than you can chew.

My advice to you would be to see how the other bids look and than sit down with the contractor you feel most comfortable with and ask him how you can bring the job into your budget.Some contractors are willing to let the homeowner do some of the work and save some money.

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Annie Hall

Feeling better about the quotes

Well, thanks to you guys I am feeling better about the quotes. You should know that the proposed design does not include domestic hot water (something I thought sounded like a great idea but couldn't sell to hubby because it meant an additional $2K and stand-along hot water heaters are a lot cheaper.)

So far I've read one response that seemed to favor gyp-crete. Any other opinions???

I'm intrigued by the possibility of doing radiators etc. in the bedrooms. My only experience with radiators goes back to the big, metal steam jobbies in the old college dorm rooms. The kind that clang and bang. I guess that experience does not indicate the state of the art.

I really appreciate the advice.

Murph'_4

sorry bout the rant

here some "new" rads to look through!!



http://www.runtalnorthamerica.com/



copy and paste



MJ.

Annie Hall

S'okay

I checked out the new rads -- times have changed. Thanks!

If we did a combo system, that would rule out gyp-crete, at least on the second (bedroom) floor, wouldn't it? Otherwise I can't imagine how we'd accomodate the various changes in floor height.

chuck shaw

Get your contractors together

You are the GC. Get your heating contractor and your flooring contractor together now. There are many things that the heating contractor can do, to make life easier for the flooring contractor. Gypcrete is a nice way to heat. And if you add "sleepers" and put your walls up on 2x8 lumber, it will give plenty of surface for nailing. It should make life pretty easy for the flooring contractor. There are some pretty simple things that the flooring contractor should know about raidant heat. If he doesnt, the heating contractor can fill him in.

As far as the indirect water heater, some battles are worth fighting. Apart from the direct savings of heating with a more efficent appliance. There is the available supply of domestic hot water (almost limitless). the life of the take, is much longer. Warrentys are generally better. If nothing else, ask the heating contractor to install a couple extra fittings, near the boiler, so that in the future you have the option of installing an indirect water heater.

Chuck Shaw


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Murph'_4

if you are on top

could try quik-trac by wirsbo, again more pricey but install and neatness could prevail.



http://www.wirsbo.com/main.php?pm=1&mm=1&sm=1&pc=homeowner/ho_mm1sm1.php



put the radiant where the comfort matters, and installs easier! floor wont change as much, but more costly!



MJ.

hot_rod

My bids these days

are going out with either panel radiators or baseboard in the bedrooms and other carpeted areas. I use the floor radiant in all bathrooms, kitchens, entry areas, perhaps dining.

The "number" looks much better, and personally radiant floors in a bedroom are really not that appreciated. By the time the bed and other furnishings are in place, not a lot of radiant floor area left to be enjoyed

I've bid these nice looking Oventrop panel radiators lately.

I also nailed down a Slant Fin baseboard job today. A former Long Island resident that insisted on HW heat. Smart fellow.

hot rod

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

you are not buying a heating system

you are buying a lifetime of comfort. 20 grand- thats cheap. all my customers who get radiant say it's the best thing they did when remodeling or building. bob

Murph'_4

why would anyone want to leave L I ??

What happened, did you piss-off the UPS man or something?? Looks like the rads took a tumble (G)!!Or perhaps a bent and dent store?? LOOK like a great radiator!!



MJ.

joel_14

price

Here's what I don't get why is 19k sticker shock??? why don't you want to pay a good price for a quality job? It seems home owners want to spend money on everything else BUT heat. Example we are doing a house with a basic set up for between 65-75k. I wanted to spend alot more and they didn't want to why? Because they "had" to spend 160k on kitchen and bath cabinets. Now how come cabinets for 160k is ok and 68k or in this case 19k is sticker shock for heat? I don't get it. Can you do it yourself? maybe but it won't be as good as what a quaility contractor could do. And don't get sucked in by sites on the net selling stuff you've never heard of with outrageous claims at least get quality materials from a wholesaler near you you can count on.

Troy_3

Gypsum concrete

In my opinion is the premium way to install radiant heat. And one of the reasons is the thermal mass eliminates heat stripeing. I love it when a benefit gets used against me. The other benefits of the gypsum is the sound deadening qualities. you also won't have any expansion noises from the pex expanding if done correctly. Be aware of faceless internet salesman. When the local professional designs and installs your system his or her reputation is on the line for all your friends and family to see. Use your common sense- ask yourself- does this salesman have any experience, will he been out there in the middle of the night when I have a problem. Hom will a single tube running under my floor between each joistbay transfer the same amount of heat as a tube on top of my floor encased in a cementitious pour. If you opt to install under the floor ask for extruded plates. Most importantly consult with local professionals that know your climate.

kevin_5

Please do it Annie!

Anie, I'm a radiant heating contractor, and when we remodeled our home, my wife didn't want to spend the extra money for radiant. I asked her how I could look someone in the eye and try to sell it to them if I wasn't willing to pay for it myself. After 3 Nebraska winters she said she will not live in any other house unless I install radiant heat in it before we move in.
As far as the clang bang radiators you remember: Steam systems in need of attention do that. Hot water systems (and properly tuned steam systems) do not do that. What Hot Rod said about radiators in bedrooms makes a lot of sense to me. Furniture placement on the other hand could be a point against radiators. Price weighs in there, but depending on what kind of decorator radiators you fall in love with, the price issue could be null and void. I've honestly never done gyp-crete. I understand it to be a high end system, and in our rural area it's very very pricey to get anyone to come pour it, especially on small jobs. We have done the Wirsbo Quik-Trak over the subfloor which works great, but in all honesty, I don't think you'll save any money doing that as opposed to gyp-crete.
we have also done a lot of the Wirsbo staple up. Like any system, it needs to be designed correctly, but it works wonderfully and is very attractive cost-wise compared to other installations. If you go that route, you may (depending on your heat loss calculation) have the option to install heat emission plates on the tubing to lower the necessary water temps. That is a hotly debated topic here, but a properly designed system will work without them if the building design/heat loss allow it. Some guys figure since they add some efficiency they should be mandatory, but everything is a trade-off. Spend more now to add efficiency (in plates and higher efficiency boilers, outdoor reset controls etc...) and it will pay off in the long run... but how long? That question is one you must answer. The important thing is that you get to live with the clean, quiet, comfort of radiant heat. There are Model T automobiles and there are Chrysler New Yorkers, and even Mercedes Benz, but any of them would beat walking. If someone couldn't afford (or Justify)the Mercedes, I wouldn't tell them to walk. Forced air is like walking. It will keep you from freezin to death, but once you've had a ride, you'll never be happy walking again.Keep coming back until you're comfortable with the answers and your decision. I'm much less experienced than many of these guys, but you're the big reason why we're all here. Thanks Kevin

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Mark Eatherton1

20K sounds cheap!

If we were doing it I can guarantee it would have run more. As for gyp-crete, any time you can encase tube in a cementitious material, you are light years ahead. Don't buy into the internet peddlars scam. They do not have your best interests in mind.

As for DHW, tell your hubby that the stand alone DHW heater will have a seasonal efficiency of around 40 to 50% (gas fired) and that the output capacity is extremely limited. Cough up the extra 2 K for the DHW system and it will pay for itself in fuel savings, and copious amounts of hot water.

What's more important than the basic design is the contractor standing behind this stuff. Make darned sure you're comfortable with him, because you're marrying him and his system for life. Go out and look at his completed jobs, talk to the customers. Make sure they were satisifed with his services.

I agree with not doing radiant floors every where. Radiant heating in general is THE most comfortable method there is, and radiant floors without a doubt is THE most comfortable method of radiant heaitng, but at what cost...

If you were to do radiant ceilings throughout, the installed cost would be less than radiant floors because it is not necessary to cover every square foot of ceiling to provide you with a high quality of radiant heat.

About the only places I would consider doing radiant floors would be the bathrooms and the large main entry. Otherwise, I'd recommend looking to other areas for radiant comfort.

Gypcrete around here adds between 2 and 3$ per square foot. Costs vary depending upon the ready availability of sand, the primary ingredient of gypcrete.

I have radiant ceilings, walls, floors and panel radiators in my house, and I love them ALL. But I am most comfortable with the ceilings and wall radiators.

You have lots of choices to make. Make them wisely and you won't regret it. Make them wrong and you'll wish you hadn't made them at all...

ME

steve_26

Radiant or find someone else to scream at.

Annie,put in the Radiant!! Sounds like a great deal for the price. Quick story, I looked at a job in a town west of Boston. Homeowners adding on new master BR suite to existing 5000 sf home. We proposed all new heating system, new Viessmann boiler ,indirectTank, new Hydroair two zone 1stFL using existing ductwork and all new 2nd FL Hydro system 2zone.. Plus Radiant for the 30x30 20FT ceiling Great Room. Existing one was forced hot air.
Homeowners did not want to spend the money on the Radiant.
I met with them in the room in front of the BIG TV on the sofa full of BIG blankets used to wrap themselves up in winter. I explained they were about to spend a lot of money on the rest of the project and come winter those blankets will still be their best friends..We put it in and she called me that 1st winter, Thanked me till the cows came home..They can now watch that Big Tv Butt naked if they want how can you put a price on that....

Annie Hall

Buck naked, huh? Indeed, how can you put a price on that? I'd say your post sealed the deal for my husband. No backing away from radiant now -- thanks!