need input on indirects

Dave Palmer_3

Weil/McLain plus's with good luck,Amtrol was bad for a while but seem ok now. I have a customer who is on their 4th Amtrol in 3 years. All leaked at the coil,same place.But changed out a Amtrol today that was 20 years old,go figure. Dave

Mad Dog

What's every body using for indirects?

I've tried them all and seen superstores and phase IIIs get internal leaks. Successes ? failures? what are you guys using. I've got a phase III leaker right now and I'm reluctant to put one back now. I'm thinking of "making my own" , i.e., going with a flat plate HX and using an electric water heater for storage capacity. Whatchoo guys think? Mad Dog

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Geno_15

Good question

I used to like the Amtrol boilermate. Toured the factory and took their hydronics course. I heard some people had leaks with them too. I never did. I did have leaks with almost if not every brand of stainless tank I can remember putting in which seems odd. I can't say that one was worse than the other in that regard. I think it's more electrolysis with the s/s tanks than anything else. Where the Amtrol is plastic lined. Have you checked the anode rods in the tanks that went bad? Pull one and get back to me. I think most scratch that all need some kind of dielectric fittings.
Geno

Mad Dog

Thanks Geno

I 'm really thinking of goin to go with a flat plate HX and a elec hwh for storage. Like you, I've sen thema lleak in less than 10 years wchich is what I usually get out of any water heater. MD

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Robert O'Connor_4

Mega Store

I use Crown Mega Store indirects and am very happy with them. Never had a leaker. I service some that are in over 15 years.

I think you will find the costs close together when you figure additional labor and parts going the flat plate route with conventional tank.

Also the indirects have good insulation in them . Do conventional tanks have the same amount?

Regards,
Robert

Mad Dog

Thank You Robert..where do I find them?

I'd be willing to try one out. MD

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Dana

Vaughn stone lined are also very good. Never replaced one I put in.

hot_rod

To be honest

I have installed dozens of brands, going back 20 years now. The ONLY style that I never had a leaker was the Vaillant.

It was a enameled steel tank with a large steel coil, no fins. Had a huge hand hole opening to check progress Maintain the anodes and they last.

Interestingly enough I see HTP now offers a porcelain enameled steel tank, large smooth steel coil, low pressure drop.

I've had one on order for about 6 weeks now. Not a good sign??

Bradford White has a new steel tank indirect with a 1-1/2" steel coil, 3 anode rods, 2" foam. I'm still pissed at BW for all those crappy Combi Cors I changed out for free, however. 1 more to go, and I'm clear of those "boat anchors" forever.

Looks to be a trend towards steel indirects!

Inital cost looks lower on the steel tanks, and I feel the life expectency will be longer than the stainless, for whatever reason. Problem is it may take 5, 8, or 10 years to find out.

Personally 10 years on a lower cost steel tank would be acceptable to me, especially in homes with high DHW useage. I can't imagine you would beat that with a "homebuilt' external HX job.

The down side of external HX is a hit on efficiency, and those plate HXs may need ocassional cleaning on the domestic side. Performance really goes in the toilet when they start liming up, also. Add the labor cost to build it and the additional SS or bronze pump and the indirects really look alright, $$ wise. It's the free change outs that put a burr under my saddle!

I suspect the Viessmann top line SS indirect is long lived, it certainly is the most "enginnered" Labor and tank reinbursment may be "built in" to the sticker on them! The contractors that got free ones indicate these to be the best tank

hot rod

Geno_15

Have you ever

tried the Energy Kinetics H/X's? They make the System 2000's. Those worked well. The only time I had a problem was when the customer had really bad water. I'm going to be switching my house to indirect soon from a coil and I'm thinking of going back to Boilermates but I heard they have problems. Anybody have any input???

Mad Dog

haaa never heard of them

where can you get em MD

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kevin coppinger_4

their warranty (Amtrols)....

is a real hassle, you need an act of congress and jump through a ton of hoops...coil leaks if not handled with care.I have used the superstor contender as of late. not a lot of sppeed on recovery but the $ is great.kpc

Murph'_4

free change outs ???

My vaillant is still going strong after ten years, Matt i have some info on the crown ss tank, I'll try to call you in the morning, has alot to do with what HR has posted, and you thought BW was bad. whoooahh!!



Murph'

Unknown

I think Blackman Plumbing supply

carries the Megastor . From what my manager's been telling me , we have been having some real rough times with the brands we use - the Megastor and Phase 3 . He told me the reps for both companys said that the failure rates are extremely higher than average for Long Island . We had to replace a Megastor 3 times in a matter of months in a home in Brookville . Water pressure was fine , and we had the water tested , I'm not sure of the results though . We just recently started using a porcelain lined tank - I forget which brand , I'll find out tomorrow . We also dabbled in the Superstor Contender - only a few installed , so we have no long term experience . But what I know is theyre pretty heavy compared to other indirects , and the plastic jacket cracks pretty easy .

I was talking to a buddy who works for a plumbing supply and he recommended an Ergomax type indirect they sell - the tank holds boiler water and theres 3 coils inside for hot water . They have been selling them for years with minimal leakers . I'll find out the brand tomorrow also .

ScottMP

I am supprised to hear

About leakers with Super-Stor. We install them allmost exclusivly and no problems. I do really like the Megastor but they have a little more hieght to them and that makes some installs tough. I think Super-stor may have had some problems witht he wields a few years back but has that worked out well.

Amtrols leak at the top once the bladder tank fails.

I have replaced one of the Valliants I installed, and just ordered a new anode rod for another. Your right HR, change the rod and keep on going.

Viessmann ...... high grade stainless steel, lots on insulation, clean out .....

Scott

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B. Tice

indirects

The Vailliants are starting to let go around here. Most 12-14 years old. I think Ergomax is probably best. But, I have had good luck with Amtrol, too. But local water conditions are a big factor.

Tundra

Beware of the plate heat exchangers. They tend to plug up. usuall buildup on the domestic side. I have seen quite a bit of problems with the boiler side. Any solids will collect in the heat plate heat exchangers. I have seen anything from fair sized flakes of rust to a particles so fine they form into a paste or clay texture.

If you still want to make your own indirect...

remove the dip tube from the water heater, melt the pipe and twist of at about 20" so as to plug the end, drill eight 1/4" holes near the end of the dip tube. This will
keep the hot water up high and allow you to pull off the cooler water at the bottom. Be sure to put in valving to make it easy to back flush the system.

I use the Amtrol. I understand they had a problem awhile back, probably due to a disgruntled employee. They have a finned heat exchanger which can be a problem in some water.

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

Have gone through

many indirects myself and the ones I like to install are the Viessmann Vitocell's. They make two basic models; stainless steel and plain steel with a "ceraprotect" (two coats of enamel) lining. We've installed both kinds now for the last 8-10 years and have never had a callback.

Advantages:

- large diameter (1¼") HX so that you can use small pumps

- large surface area HX for good heat transfer

- very thick insulation for low standby losses

- excellent technical data with charts that will give you head loss through the HX and output as a function of boiler size

They also have a bivalent model that has a second HX that you can pipe for a solar input or a radiant output.

Both stainless steel and ceraprotect models are available hotizontal and vertical.

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Joe_30

Why use 'em?

Why should I use a $1,000 -plus indirect fired DHW system [, even though I have piped my new near-boiler piping to take one,] when I can merely replace my old gas fired model for less than half that at a big box store, and, from many of your experiences reported here, get the same life out of it.

The freestanding one I have, though the plastic tube showed up as sink debris several years ago, is still heating water after 13 years. And gas is not so very expensive here.[yet].

Said better, assuming equal life of the tank, is the savings of using the boiler to heat the water worth the installation cost. What value elegance?

Mad Dog

I agree Joe

i look at them as a last resort, i.e., if there is no chimney. The oil companies have pushed big for them to cut down on servicing 2 burners, but I'll take a Bock with its own gun any day. I"M sick of INDIRECTS...seems that everyone else have a lot of problems too. MD

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hot_rod

Yet another san indirect reason

Should the boiler or pump, or controls go down you still have hot water with a seperate tank. Homeowners are more understanding of a no heat problem if they still have running hot water.

This was my experience in resort towns with rental units, especially!

If all goes right and an indirect lasts 20 years, the investment pays off for the upfront cost difference, and operating cost gains, if any!. Unfortuantly the installing contractor takes the hit, money wise, for problems and premature failures. Isn't that always the way

hot rod