old mansion steam system

DanHolohan

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john_27

no vents on my steam system

well, I purchased Dan's book and went down in the basement....I have an old Broomell system....two weil mclain boilers (1983- in tandem)with a combined load of 4700 sq.ft against a connected load of about 1800 sq.ft...two mains each 6" running 120 feet....and NO vents at the end of the mains.System was installed in 1916 and ran on coal(I still have the chutes in place). Would anyone have any thoughts as to the best method of sizing vents for a system like this, and any favorite manufacturers.....also, I have a cold first floor radiator...steam is hot to it in the basement, but the intake line is cold...I'm going to insert a pin in the broomell valve...thoughts?

Mad Dog

Wow are real old gem of a system

The way to go with vents will be Gorton #2s - a battery of them I'm sure. Our resident steam geek (a compliment!) Steamhead will be able to run the numbers for you quickly...I think he keeps all the numbers in his head. I recently added vents to a system very similar to yours. The heat comes up MUCH faster - you may not even need to put a new vent on that cold rad. Where is the job located? Cutting in these vents is the job for a pro. Find a contractor will put you in touch with the right company for steam work. Mad Dog

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Unknown

I can help.

Are the radiator outlet seals all intact?

Is there a way to control the pressure down to a few ounces of pressure?

Is there a condensing radiator at the far end of the high return, piped to the chimney, or to a big air vent?

The pressure control should be a vaporstat (on each boiler), set to run near 1/2 PSI (8 ounces), so that the steam and air doesn't overwhelm the radiator seals.

With that accomplished, the venting can be an open pipe. It used to be run into a chimney to "pull" the air out of the high returns. The radiator on the ceiling would condense any stray steam in the returns.

It would start up very fast, with this set-up.

Oh, shut off one boiler. You probably don't need both.

Noel

Mad Dog

Sorry Wrong Picture

computer is acting wacky. MAD Dog

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Jacob Myron_11

Broomel system

No vents are needed on the radiators.
The outlet fitting on the radiator is a patitioned water seal. Remove the inspection cover and make sure that the pin hole at the top of the partition is free of debris, a paper clip or pipe cleaner will fit in to the hole if it needs cleaning. That hole is where air is released from the system at each radiator. All air flows down the return piping to the master vent and is released from the system at that point.

If the receiver is still on the near boiler piping you donot need vent valves, if the receiver was removed from the piping you will need fast vent vent valves. Because, the Broomel system is capable of producing a vacuum when the boiler shuts down I would install a 3/4" high quality check valve in place of the vent valve. The discharge of the vent piping should go to the cooling radiator located on the ceiling near the boiler or boiler room. that radiator will cool any hot air or steam that may vent out of the sysyetm. The dicharge of the radiator may be vented to the chimney or out side of the building.

The broomel will operate very well at 4 OZ. steam pressure.

A vaporstat can be installed to control the burner. Vapor stat should have an operating pressure of 0-1 Psi, with a differential control. Set that control at 4 OZ. off and 2 0Z. burmer on.


Jake

Steamhead

Not in my head, MD ;-)

but I keep them handy.

John, assuming you're measuring the actual pipe diameter and not that of the insulation on the pipe (and if you did inadvertantly measure the insulation please tell us), each main consisting of 120 feet of 6-inch pipe has 24 cubic feet of air to be vented.

That's a lot of air to vent, but it can be done. Install five Gorton #2 vents at the end of each main (this is really a job for a pro, contact me if you're in or near Baltimore or go to the Find a Contractor page of this site). This will allow the steam to fill each main in about a minute.

As previously mentioned, if the receiver/regulator (pictured in "Lost Art") is still in place you shouldn't need to add vents to the dry returns. If it has been removed, the dry returns must be vented since they receive the air from the radiators. If the condensing radiator is still there, you can vent the returns thru it and into the chimney. If not, use Gortons. This is a bit harder to figure, but I'd start with two Gorton #2 vents near where the dry returns connect before dropping to the boiler. If you hear air rushing out of these vents as the system heats up, add vents until they vent quietly.

And as Noel says you can ditch one of those boilers. Maybe donate it to a supplier for low-income households?

If no one handles Gorton vents in your area, go to

www.gorton-valves.com

contact Ken Kunz and tell him I sent you.

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john_27

old mansion steam system

the system does have a condensing radiator near the boilers in the basement....connected to chimney but disconnected from system....the job is in the western suburbs of Philadelphia and is part of an estate(on 15 acres)which also has a Lord/Burnham greenhouse(hot water -under bench heating-need to install a 270k boiler), a carriage house( hot water- weil 250k with the old 1880 radiators Dan loves, and a cottage(125k- weil-old radiators as well. on the main house, the system runs at 4 oz's with a pressuretrol( I think), and has an automatic water feed(Dan's book has a picture of it.)...am trying to figure out how to put pictures up for everyone...john

john_27

old mansion steam system

The system does have a condensing radiator near the boilers in the basement.... not connected to chimney and disconnected from system....the job is in the western suburbs of Philadelphia and is part of an estate(on 15 acres)which also has a Lord/Burnham greenhouse(hot water -under bench heating-need to install a 270k boiler), a carriage house( hot water- Weil 250k with the old 1880 radiators Dan loves, and a cottage(125k- Weil-old radiators as well. On the main house, the system runs at 4 oz's with a pressuretrol( I think), and has an automatic water feed(Dan's book has a picture of it.)...am in process of putting up pictures up for everyone...enjoy the greenhouse...John

john_27

to Dan

Dan...many thanks for reposting this thread....if you are ever down in Bryn Mawr, you should see this place....it is one of the old Campbell's Soup estates...in rough shape when I got it, and really beautiful from a design perspective...I've three years into it, and am working hard to restore all the old outbuildings, greenhouse, etc., beccause I love these old places from yesteryear, just as you love steam systems....I had a place like this before, and landmarked it so it couldn't be developed, and hope to do the same with this one.....your book is terrific, and thank you for autographing it for me...John

DanHolohan

Thanks for that, John,

and for doing what you're doing!

john_27

to dan

thanks to you...the number down here is 610 581 0405...I know it is a hike, but the offer is open...also, I posted a picture of a 1916 Lord and Burnham greenhouse on this thread for everyone to enjoy...
I hope you saw it, and enjoyed a visit to a very beautiful past...john