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An opportunity to ask hydronic cooling questions.

John@WattsRadiant
John@WattsRadiant Member Posts: 49
in THE MAIN WALL
With Mean Radiant Temp lower for radiant cooling, what comfort (air) temp is typically designed for? I assume it is some number above normal a/c indoor design temps.
John

Comments

  • Tom Meyer
    Tom Meyer Member Posts: 300
    I need your help guys.

    A client of mine and I will be meeting with Giacomini engineers in Milan in a two weeks to talk about how they've successfully used hydronic systems for cooling as well as heating. According to them, they've done it successfully for 7 years.

    Given an opportunity to sit down at the plant with the engineers, what questions would you ask them?

    I'll take the questions posted here and when I get back, I'll post their answers.

    Here a chance to ask the tough questions. I'd appreciate your help making the most of this opportunity.

    Senior Designer/Trainer
    Precision Hydronics Corporation
    www.precisionhydronics.com
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,610
    How do they handle

    condensation?
    Retired and loving it.
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0
    Sure, I have one

    In some areas, the humidity and the amount of cooling needed might rule out radiant cooling. Utah and New York may be two examples of different conditions.

    Do they have criteria for what conditions it isn't economicly worthwile to use this method? Is it good for all local conditions?

    How do they size for latent load and for sensable load?
  • Dale
    Dale Member Posts: 1,317
    Expansion

    What expansion problems have they had, any noise related?
  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928


    Can it actually be done "radiantly" by carefully controlling emissivity in a space?

    i.e. REFLECTING the radiation off surfaces and allowing the body to "feel" cool and comfortable even in the presence of air AND surfaces warmer than typically "assumed" comfortable?

    If truly possible (and as recently reported by Dan) you only have to worry about condensation in the very small cooling device itself as you've never cooled other objects lower than the dewpoint.
  • John@WattsRadiant
    John@WattsRadiant Member Posts: 49
    Sizing information for cooling

    The only info I've seen for sizing radiant cooling is in the ASHRAE Handbooks. Do they have anything else?
    Thanks,
    John
  • Tony_8
    Tony_8 Member Posts: 608
    cooling

    since the dewpoint can change in the conditioned space, how do they keep the panel above that point ? Or, is the space dehumidified by a desiccant ? Is there a minimum panel temp ? ie. 70F ?
    Sounds like a great application for a water to water heat pump !
  • Tom Meyer
    Tom Meyer Member Posts: 300
    Great stuff!

    Keep it coming, guys.

    Someone I was talking with asked me a simple question:

    "Americans are spoiled. They like to be toasty warm and refrigerator cool while the Europeans are a bit more tolerant. What do they consider cool?"

    Interesting point.

    Senior Designer/Trainer
    Precision Hydronics Corporation
    www.precisionhydronics.com
  • Floyd_2
    Floyd_2 Member Posts: 52
    yeah...

    they want 68* in the summer..... and 78* in the winter!!!!!!
    Spoiled rotten BRATS!!!!!
    Something about coming into the warmth in the winter and getting cooled off in the summer...
    It's all in the "head" and we Americans ARE abit crazy!!!!!

    Kinda like the "placebo" t-stat!!!

    Floyd (can't get people figgered out) Kolb
  • agodin
    agodin Member Posts: 4
    hydronic cooling

    Can you use a kickpsace hydronic heater to cool an area? How cold would the water need to be? 40? 50? 60? How could you determine what size of kickspace heater to use for an area? Would say a 30 degree diffrence in supply temp would equal the same amount of cooling as heating? I had an idea of putting some kind of heat exchange (fin tube)in my well that would circulate water through a kick space heater. This would cool the house and warm up the domestic water prior to being heated. Just an idea. Any input would be great.

    Thanks
    Art
  • ScottMP
    ScottMP Member Posts: 5,883
    are they talking about core conditioning ?

    > With Mean Radiant Temp lower for radiant cooling,

    > what comfort (air) temp is typically designed

    > for? I assume it is some number above normal a/c

    > indoor design temps. John





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  • ScottMP
    ScottMP Member Posts: 5,883
    are they talking about core conditioning ?

    > With Mean Radiant Temp lower for radiant cooling,

    > what comfort (air) temp is typically designed

    > for? I assume it is some number above normal a/c

    > indoor design temps. John





    To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"
  • ScottMP
    ScottMP Member Posts: 5,883
    are they talking about core conditioning ?

    This is where the concret core of the building is cooled during the evening and then allowed to absorb the heat of the building during the day. This eliminates alot of the condensation problem. We don't build with so much concret as they do in Europe.

    Scott

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  • Tom Meyer
    Tom Meyer Member Posts: 300
    Good questions!

    As a matter of fact, they say to avoid installation in concrete because it doesn't work as well. I received an info pack (quite a thick one).

    Lots of good questions guys. Keep them coming.

    One of the ojections to hydronic heat I've heard is "You have to install air conditioning ducts anyway, so what's the advantage." We know heating/air conditioning dual purpose ducting is a compromise.


    Senior Designer/Trainer
    Precision Hydronics Corporation
    www.precisionhydronics.com
  • Canuck
    Canuck Member Posts: 57


    What chillers do they use for their systems? Are they specifically made for the residential market? What are the costs for these units? Are there any available in North America? How do they handle seasonal crossover? (Manual three-way, solenoid, packaged valve groups)?
    I like it! - Can't wait to hear back from your trip.
  • flange
    flange Member Posts: 153


    i have worked on some older systems that utilized hydronic cooling, they seemed to be okay. the controls were old pneumatics that obviously reset supply temp from outside dewpoint. the one thing i could never figure out was how to size these. as in any dual temp type of system you will need to find out what type of protection they have for the chiller. that is, you dont want to dump boiler water into the chiller accidently and overpressurize it due to the 180 degree water? also how does the system respond to mild weather? that is, do you run heat in the morning then run cooling in the afternoon or is there a deadband built into the control package?
  • Bob_19
    Bob_19 Member Posts: 94
    How Do They?

  • Bob_19
    Bob_19 Member Posts: 94
    How Do They?

    reject the heat that has been absorbed during the cooling process.
    I tried this with a simple H/W loop for A/H, the hydronic medium would pick-up heat up to a point, only problem was there was no effective way to remove the picked-up heat before it returned to the A/H coil.

    Added a drip pan to catch any moisture at the coil, but there wasn't much.

  • Tom Meyer
    Tom Meyer Member Posts: 300
    Lots of good questions here

    I've been printing them out and have one of their engineers cornered for dinner. Little does he realize I'm going to whip out the questions while he's trying to work on his salad.

    Senior Designer/Trainer
    Precision Hydronics Corporation
    www.precisionhydronics.com
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