Labor for Radiant Install......Boilerpro

Boilerpro_3

for that 2500 sq ft per day? For me I am a one man and for now, a two man shop, so I need manhours per 100sq ft. I don't see one man doing 2500 sq ft per day of plates 8 inchs OC. Sounds like you've got it down to a science.

I was looking at the Wirsbo plates.... they are cheaper than the old sheet aluminum variety. Also looking at using Rehau 3/8 tube. Area should be pretty clear... gutted out old constuction and adjacent new construction. I was planning on screwing the plates with a battery gun with zip screws. Do the staples really hold or are you gunning yours also? I was wondering what your jig looked like, now I know. Do you use it to align the plates end to end also?

Boilerpro_3

Labor

Looking at my first residential under floor plate install with 3/8 inch tubing with 4 foot long single groove extruded plates..... tubing snaps in from underneath. Wonder what are some ball park figures for the number of plates per hour and then tubing install, including manifold connection from you more experienced installers. Also, what are these same numbers for regular old double grove plates sheet aluminum plates?
Trying to cover myself and be fair to the customer too.

BTW do the extruded plates also come double grove ? I imagine it may save some installation labor.

As always,

THANKS

Boilerpro

hot_rod

Lots of variables

The biggest issue is how clear the joist spaces are. If there is plumbing, electricial, duct, nails, etc this really slows you down.

Will you be drilling joist ends? TJI or dimensional lumber?Crawl space or basement? Scaffold with wheels or ladder work?

What about fasteners. Zip screws, screw gun, nail gun or air stapler?

The quickest method I have worked is rolling scaffold with an air compressor and short hose. Put the compressor and stack of plates on the upper scaffold plank and adjust the lower plank to your "reach" I can even roll myself around if the floor is clear and swept.

Idea working conditions with a jig to hold and space the plates (make one with 1/2 copper tube and some fittigs) No other subs in the way, a good radio station, ideal working temperature, maybe 2500 square feet a day, two plates per joist bay.

If it is a crawl space buy a roll of Insultarp and use it for a pad to crawl on.

hot rod

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John Ruhnke1

What does this jig look like?

> The biggest issue is how clear the joist spaces

> are. If there is plumbing, electricial, duct,

> nails, etc this really slows you down.

>

> Will

> you be drilling joist ends? TJI or dimensional

> lumber?Crawl space or basement? Scaffold with

> wheels or ladder work?

>

> What about fasteners.

> Zip screws, screw gun, nail gun or air

> stapler?

>

> The quickest method I have worked is

> rolling scaffold with an air compressor and short

> hose. Put the compressor and stack of plates on

> the upper scaffold plank and adjust the lower

> plank to your "reach" I can even roll myself

> around if the floor is clear and swept.

>

> Idea

> working conditions with a jig to hold and space

> the plates (make one with 1/2 copper tube and

> some fittigs) No other subs in the way, a good

> radio station, ideal working temperature, maybe

> 2500 square feet a day, two plates per joist

> bay.

>

> If it is a crawl space buy a roll of

> Insultarp and use it for a pad to crawl on.

> hot rod

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 144&Step=30"_To Learn More About This Contractor,

> Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A

> Contractor"_/A_





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John Ruhnke1

What does this jig look like?

Hot Rod,

I'm bidding on a job using those same plates, Dales plates of course. I have installed the old Wirsbo double groove plates on a few jobs but never the heavier extruded plates. I want to give Dales plates a try. What does the jig look like?

JR



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hot_rod

A simple

one from scrap copper. I squeeze the tubes "egg shape" in the vise so the jig removes from the plates easily. Not too lose that the plates slide off as you lift them into place, however.

I can actually "handle" 8 foot plates, alone, if you set the jig mid point of the plates. Hold the jig with one hand, the air nailer in the other and blast away!

No reason this tool couldn't be fabed from steel tube also, and brazed.

hot rod

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Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

So far,

most of our staple-up work has been done under ideal conditions, i.e. standup area below, very little drilling (looping under joists), all obstructions removed, no other subs, owner on vacation, experienced installers, etc. and with a team of 3, we can install 800 [] of plates in a day (8 hrs.) and that much tubing off a local manifold in 4 hrs.

You might have to wait a while for your learning curve to straighten out. And hr brings up a good point to make sure the area is clear and obstructions have been removed before you send anyone out.

For bidding purposes, you might want to double that labor figure. There are usually delays of one kind or another that can mess you up.


Alan

P.S. That's quite a range: 800[] (us) and 2,500 [] (hr). We have more distractions here on the west coast.

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hot_rod

Air tools

make a huge difference. I use an old Makita coil nailer shooting 3/4" long nails. It will shoot as fast as you can pull the trigger.

I'll bet I can shoot 100 nails in the time you could hand load, and drive home 25 zip screws. Especially in the un-drilled plates. It takes a while for the screw to grind through the plate and into the floor. The drill bit tipped screws work best if you have no pilot holes

Of course over driving them causes them to strip out of the subfloor. Zip screws really aren't the best for holding in wood.

With a holding jig you should be able to shoot 4 -eight foot plates per minute. That covers 16 feet per minute with double plates per each joist bay.

Using a 50 X 50 room (2500 square feet) each joist bay using 12 plates= 3 minutes per bay. A 50 foot space would have something like 42 joist bays (16" OC)

Lets round up to 5 minutes per 50 foot joist bay for slower installers. 42 joist bays X 5 minutes each = 210 minutes or 3.5 hours. Throw in a break or two and call it 4 hours for 2500 square feet.

Now, again this is just the plate install. Drilling and snapping tube and connecting manifolds is another ball O wax.

I suppose the rest of that 8 hour day could be drilling joists. Could you tube 2500 feet in a day? Maybe with two guys!

When you work alone, as I do, you figure out methods and tools to expedite the job.

hot rod



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Murph'_4

better addin a nail clause....

if you are bidding rehab work, pulling and cutting out old nails unforseen could put a damper on a "bid" very fast!! and them old roughcut joist may be a real bear to drill.


Murph'

hot_rod

BP

I think Wirsbo still offers the thin (flashing gauge, stamped) single and dual plates and the extruded aluminum (RTI's I believe.)

I agree 3/8" tube is the easiest to install. Stay in that 200 foot loop length, of course with 3/8". I think Wirsbo 3/8 is the most flexible, although I haven't tried the extra flexible Mr. Pex brand

For an end jig I have a T shaped piece welded up. A piece of 1/2" copper tube works, also, but ther T handle helps remove and install it easily. actually youn can "eyeball" the alingment when you get going. The end jig slows you up a bit.

Oh yeah, the staples and roof nails HOLD. Generally you will break the staple before you can pull one out. They have a special glue coating, or something, that really locks them in. When you see a failed roof due to wind or tornado, usually all the staples are still in the rafters and they pull through the plywood or shingles.

I think some codes now require wide crown staples and plywood not wafer for this reason.

You really need to spend a day to prefect your method. every production plate installer comes up with a system that fits their style. And tool collection

Certainly a two man show would be much quicker. One guy on each end of the scaffold and hand the nail gun back and forth.

I had a husband and wife, first timers, install all their plates several years ago. fairly handy "artise" interior designers (twinkies.)

Over the weekend they installed 2800 sq. ft. I came back and drilled and tubed the job. Homeowners tend to take extra care to make it look nice on their own home. Saving money really drives their motivation Good luck.

hot rod

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