Cleaning a DUNKIRK boiler

[Deleted User]

but i use a rifle cleaning brush kit to clean boilers..works great..i actually keep a rifle cleaning kit on the truck just for this purpose.

Steve Whitbeck

Cleaning a DUNKIRK boiler

I have a customer that I installed a new Dunkirk boiler 80%er. It is on well gas and he must have had a pressure drop because it sooted up. I then took the top off to clean it. Surprise - You can't get a wire and nylon bristle brush between the nipples. The factory was NO help. They first talked to me like I was an idiot. Then they suggested using a garden hose on it. Come on people this is in someones basement and the nearest floor drain is 6 ft away.
What have you guys used to clean one of these.
OH - I won't be buying any more DUNKIRK or UTICA boilers again.

Bill NTSG

what about

......you can take an aluminum turkey roaster pan and stuff[pun intended]it in the combustion area of the boiler, make a little funnel area and place a 5 gallon pail then wash it out with water. For a gas boiler to soot up like that something must be way wrong. Is it is set up for natural or propane? Pressures ok? Enough combustion air? Water leak in boiler when burner firing?

peter desens

Concerned

Sooting is not typically associated with gas boilers, and when it is, it is a serious matter. Oil can produce soot well before there is a threat of Carbon Monoxide (CO)production, on the contrary, soot and CO go hand in hand when dealing with gas.

The problem is most likely the use of well gas. I am not aware of any boiler that is approved for use with anything other than propane of natural gas. There is no way of telling the purity and potency of well gas, both of which can contribute to a sooting condition. Cleaning the boiler may be the immediate concern, but my overall concern is for the safety of the homeowners. If the reason for the sooting can not be determined and fixed, I would suggest the boiler not be placed back in operation.

To clean a boiler that is plugged with soot can prove to be a challenge. It is very important to make sure the boiler is totally clean, this is probably why washing it with water was suggested. Any soot left behind will act as a restriction, creating a potential for reoccurance.

There are of course brushes made to clean boilers. Your local heating wholesaler may stock them. If this is the chosen method, I would still recommend spraying a mist of water in the boiler, fire it up, and let the moisture bake off the remaining soot (repeat as necessary). If the boiler is not totally clean, I again have to recommend it not be placed in operation.

I am sorry that your experience with our factory personel was anything other than totally enjoyable. If you have any concerns, please feel free to contact me at 1-800-325-5479, ext. 4128.

Peter Desens
Technical Service Manager
ECR International - Dunkirk Boilers

Dave Palmer_3

buy a 3/8 brush and a soot sword (looks like a saw blade about 24" long by very thin)

Steamhead

This is the kind of factory response and support

we like to see. Nice going, Pete.

I don't think the subject of well gas has come up on the Wall before. I'm guessing that the HO has a well on the property and gets the gas for free. Since this is very appealing in an era of skyrocketing energy costs, I would expect it to come up again. Maybe the company operating the well could test the gas for purity, BTU content etc and so inform Tinkerer and the HO?

The only time I've seen gas boilers sooted up is when the burners are overfired, air shutters are closed too far or the chimney is restricted. Tinkerer, I'm sure you've checked all these things as far as possible- this installation probably doesn't have a meter to clock and we don't know the exact BTU content anyway.

Let us know what you come up with!

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Tom_18

Sooting

One othe thing that can cause sooting of a gas boiler is debris from construction such as dry wall dust or sawdust. Please make sure that the boiler is covered during those messy times.

Boilerpro_3

Short cycling can also cause sooting

I recently had a boiler in which the previous servicer installed too small of a transformer. The boiler would spark, light the pilot, then signal for low fire and then high. When the current draw of the high fire hit the trans, voltage would drop causing the pilot valve to close. This just kept repeating itself until the call for heat was removed.

Another soot up was when a boiler was leaking and rusted up the burner ports near the pilot light. The pilot would light and then gas built up in the combustion chamber and popped, blowing out the pilot. Again this just kept happening until the call for heat ended.

Find the cause. On the first another company cleaned the boiler a few hours before I arrived and replaced all the burned up controls, but not the transformer, so it was still shortcycling. He also did the classic... increased the pressure setting and dif to get a longer cycle.

Find the CAUSE!

Boilerpro

Steve Whitbeck

.

Steve Whitbeck

Peter Desins

Steve Whitbeck

sooting

Peter Desins - I am very experienced cleaning boilers of all styles and manufacturers. This boiler is 9 months old and yes it is on well gas. I have worked with boilers on well gas for many years. The problem is that the gas pressure can sometimes drop below normal operating range and this can cause the boiler to soot up. The customer understands this and I have worked with this customer and his relatives for many years. By the way they own the wells not just the rights. They own more wells than I can count. This is the first boiler that you can't brush out. Yes I have boiler cleaning brushes. The problem is that the nipples don't line up in rows like all the other boilers I have cleaned over the last 29 years. The nipples only line up for about 2 inches and then the brush hits a dead end. Believe me when I say that I have cleaned many boilers over the years including comercial fire tube boilers and I have a B2 licence. I just can't see draging a garden hose into a customers basement and HOSING out a boiler. What normally would take me less than 1 hour from start to finish has now become a knightmare. The bad thing is that I have another one of your boilers at his fathers house. I just want to come up with a easy way to clean these boilers like the old ones were. YES I know it is on well gas but the customer knows and expects to have problems from time to time but this ocasional cleaning has become a big problem for ME now since I installed the boiler that can't be easily cleaned. OH and one other thing - You can't remove the collector box without removing the sides of the boiler to remove two screws that lock the front of the box into the internal front cover. I am not just some service man - Years ago I took a tour of the SLANT FIN factory and was shown the then soon to be released boiler and I made a suggestion to the VP about the boiler and today that suggestion is installed on the boiler. If you would send me the brushes to PROPERLY clean this boiler I will gladly pay you for them as soon as I see that they can really work. ( Two sets please ) Thank You for your input. Steven Whitbeck (616) 957-0757

Steve Whitbeck

steamhead

HI - when adjusting for well gas it is experience and looking at the flame. Well gas is hotter than natural but not as hot as propane. You run the same preasure as propane but drill the orifices slightly larger than propane. You just have to make small adjustments untill you get the size flame that you want. You also make sure that you don't get too much flame and start producing high CO readings. I have about 20 customers on well gas.
My company specializes in boilers and in floor systems.
I personally enjoy working on the oddball systems.
Thanks Steve

Steamhead

Very Interesting

I didn't know well gas had a higher BTU content than the usual natural gas. They must dilute the well gas before sending it to the utility companies. Is well gas lighter than air like natural, or heavier like propane?

I would assume that if we were releasing the proper number of BTUs into the firebox, and the burners were properly adjusted, the boiler would not soot up no matter what type of gas we were using.

My next question may reveal my need to spend some time at Tim McElwain's gas seminars, but here goes- if pressure drops are a problem on a well-gas hookup, could the orifices be sized to deliver the required amount of gas at a lower manifold pressure, between that of natural and propane? If we could do this at a pressure below which the gas supply doesn't go, it might solve the problem.

We never see this kind of thing around Baltimore- my brother might, he does oil exploration out West. We rarely even see a propane hookup here. But you've aroused my curiosity. I like oddball stuff too- but my favorite is Vapor systems!

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wjh

dunkirk

I would check with dunkirk they had a recall on there boilers not to long ago and offered a kit to correct the problem.They can tell from the model and serial number.You have to replace the burners and orifices if it is the model that had the problem.

wjh

dunkirk

I would check with dunkirk they had a recall on there boilers not to long ago and offered a kit to correct the problem.They can tell from the model and serial number.You have to replace the burners and orifices if it is the model that had the problem.

Steve Whitbeck

steamhead

The reason for elevated manifold pressure is for the same reason as with propane - You need more air to mix with the gas to get a proper burn. The higher manifold pressure causes a higher ventury efect thus more air drawn in.
Well gas seems to be more like natural gas since it doesn't posket in the low areas. The major problem with well gas is pressure drop. In cold weather the presure can go way down sometimes. It also has a high moisture content and produces a crusty scale almost like fly ash sometimes.
I just can't believe that someone would produce a boiler that can't be brushed out.

Steamhead

Ahhhh

that makes perfect sense.

In the old days, houses not connected to gas mains sometimes used a generator that made gas from coal, and an accumulator to store it in. I wonder if some sort of accumulator could be used to store enough well gas to tide the user over during a pressure drop?


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Steve Whitbeck

They already have a storage tank but when the gas runs dry in real cold weather the tank doesn't last long. The other problem with a storage tank is it tends to collect moisture just like an air compressor tank.

peter desens

Contact us

peter desens

peter desens

Steve,

If you could provide me with the model and serial of the boiler I would be able to answer your cleaning questions more specifically.

Beyond that for everyone who has followed this thread, if you could provide the BTU content and if possible the specific gravity and sulfur content of the well gas you are dealing with, I can speak more specifically to the recommended gas pressure and orifice sizing. I know this is not directly related to your cleaning questions, but I think you can understand my interest and concerns. The well gas applications I have experience with have always had BTU contents less than Natural Gas. Low BTU content will result in low flue gas temperatures. If the gas has high Sulfur content, it too will have high dew point temperatures. Low flue gas temperatures, and high dew point temperatures will harbor an environment for condensation formation. Problems as the result of condensate will depend on the severity of the condensation

For what it's worth for anyone following this thread, I would strongly recommend the use of a combustion analyzer if dealing with any type of gas, even more so if it's well gas. With well gas we do not know what we are dealing with, and only an analyzer can insure the boiler is operating safely. And if in fact the gas pressures vary enough to cause a boiler to soot, I don't think you'd find a manufacturer of heating equipment today that would condone the application.

Steve, fell free to contact me at my office directly with the boilers model and serial number if more convenient.

Peter Desens
1-800-325-5479, ext. 4128

peter desens

Can I get some info

Steve,

If you could provide me with the model and serial of the boiler I would be able to answer your cleaning questions more specifically.

Beyond that for everyone who has followed this thread, if you could provide the BTU content and if possible the specific gravity and sulfur content of the well gas you are dealing with, I can speak more specifically to the recommended gas pressure and orifice sizing. I know this is not directly related to your cleaning questions, but I think you can understand my interest and concerns. The well gas applications I have experience with have always had BTU contents less than Natural Gas. Low BTU content will result in low flue gas temperatures. If the gas has high Sulfur content, it too will have high dew point temperatures. Low flue gas temperatures, and high dew point temperatures will harbor an environment for condensation formation. Problems as the result of condensate will depend on the severity of the condensation

For what it's worth for anyone following this thread, I would strongly recommend the use of a combustion analyzer if dealing with any type of gas, even more so if it's well gas. With well gas we do not know what we are dealing with, and only an analyzer can insure the boiler is operating safely. And if in fact the gas pressures vary enough to cause a boiler to soot, I don't think you'd find a manufacturer of heating equipment today that would condone the application.

Steve, fell free to contact me at my office directly with the boilers model and serial number if more convenient.

Peter Desens
1-800-325-5479, ext. 4128

Steamhead

Tink & Pete

whatever you come up with, we'd love to see it here on the Wall. This is why we're here!



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David_5

Main question

Has anyone had problems cleaning Dunkirk boilers? What brushes or methods other than using water do you recomend? I also don't care for using water.

David

jerryb

These threads prove very interesting here on Long Island Don't see well gas.but discussion is a learning exp.

Boilerpro_3

I have used car snow brushes

The cheap ones with the long, narrow wood handles and plastic bristles. On my 1962 American Standard atmospheric gas I can use a regular bottle brush type, steel bristled flueway brush. Nearly all of the new residential atmospheric gas boilers I've seen appear to be rather difficult to clean due to the fact that the pins on the surfaces are so closely spaced. I guess the water would be nice if it keeps the soot from flying into the air. Certainly wouldn't want to try it when the boiler is in a closet off the living room though.


Boilerpro

Steve Whitbeck

I havn't had a chance to call Peter Desins yet but I will.

What is the differance if it is well gas or propane -- if the propane tank goes dry or it getts real cold outside the pressure is going to drop and the burners are going to creat soot.
HOW DO YOU CLEAN A BOILER THAT YOU CAN'T GET A BRUSH BETWEEN THE CASTING NIPPLES.
AND WATER IS NOT THE ANSWER.

I have installed boilers in closets off the laundry room or in a hall closet on a wood floor with a combustable floor kit installed. HOW DO YOU CLEAN THESE BOILERS WITH WATER?????

Unknown

How to clean with water

in a customers home that has a finshed floor and no drain:

Get some old cooking pans at least over 1" high on the sides, remove all the burners and anything else that is in the way, you may have to remove the gas manifold.

Place the pans inside the boiler, if you can get one large pan that covers the entire area it will help. Set the pans on some old towels (they wiil absorb any over spill).

Get a spray bottle and fill it 3/4 with hot water and 1/4 with dishwash detergent. After vacuuming and brushing what you can spray your mix into the sections until it begins to run down into the pan. As a final rinse after dumping your pan carefuully, fill a spray bottle with some fresh cold water with a little white vinegar mixed it about 9 parts water 1 part vinegar. Clean everything up and replace everything and fire the boiler to dry it out.

I have done this many times as I do not find over the years that vacuuming and brushing really gets the boiler clean.

By the way I have been in the gas business for over forty years and I am curious to find out what the BTU content of your well gas is? My experience has been that it runs about 750 to 850 BTU's per cubic foot is that what yours measures? I am also curious as to what pressure you are running at?

Unknown

Methanol will get

rid of the moisture it can be mixed with the gas and will not cause a problem. It will burn off with no residue at all. It is used on propane tanks all the time.

I can see why the boilers tend to soot up, if the pressure drops down below the minumum regulator inlet pressure usually 5" W.C. it will be a problem. Is the well gas regulated or is it feed directly to the gas valve and relying on the main burner regulator in the valve to control the pressure? Pilot gas by the way is not regulated on combination gas valves. If you could get a ball park pressure setting and used a pounds to inches regulator it might give you a little more stability. Another thought is to used a compressor and boost the pressure to a stable amount. If this person has all those wells I am sure they could afford to do that. If you check with comapnies compressing gas CNG we call it I am sure they could help you.

If you need some more info call me at 401-437-0557 be glad to put you in touch with a CNG producer.

Robert O'Connor_4

i agree should be able to brush a boiler

I agree that there ought to be a brush that can be successfully inserted to the boiler passages. The heat extraction pins should line up to accomodate this.


Please keep us posted as to how this is resolved.

Regards,
Robert

Steve Whitbeck

Water wash

Well guys it looks like washing it with water is the only way to clean a DUNKIRK PWX boiler.
I have installed quite a lot of the DUNKIRK boilers and have been very happy with them but this is the first time I have had to clean one.
The design of this boiler has me a little shocked.
At this time UTICA boilers will still be different from the DUNKIRK line so I will still be able to sell those.
Thanks for the help guys. Steve