Steam Venters on Steam rads -- security

Mad Dog

even though high pressure steam will kill ya like that. Look! alot of people are just gonna do what they gonna do, dig? No matter what you tell 'em THEY WILL tinker. Lock tite or leak lock ain't gonna stop a determined renter who needs heat. Do we need to drill and tap a a set screw on each vent too? Mad Dog

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JackEnnisMartin

Steam Venters on Steam rads -- security

The topic I would like to address today is not something we have upper most on our minds when working on an old steam heating plant.
Most of the steam heating plants we work on now are in apartment blocks or a more quaint term "dwelling houses". Some years ago the government here in Winnipeg decided to allocate some money for the upgrading of heating systems in the less affluent apartment blocks.
My nieghbor at that time was friends with an apartment block owner and being a good landlord was always looking for ways to upgrade his property to make it a more pleasant place to live.
The heating system was in need of repair and he took advantage of the low interest loan rate to have it upgrraded. The heating system was installed in the 1920's and no substantial work had been undertaken on it for a long time.
He contracted the work out to a respectable company and had the boiler plant improved -- controls , heating effiency, return piping work and I believe a new timer for the boiler to operate from in the warmer heating months of the year --Spring and Fall.
The contractor suggested that work on the rads was warranted and I think steam trap and shut off valves for the rads were upgraded. The owner also decided the steam venters should also be upgraded because they were in alott of cases original and just had outlived thier mechanical life. So each of the rads were equipped with new vents by one of the mechanics and it must be made clear this person did the replacement in the correct manner.
One of the suites was rented to a low income mom with little folks and I am sure considering the amount of work that had been put into the aparments she really must have thought at long last someone was looking after her!
She moved in I believe in the warmer months and was a resident for some time before the weather { late October} began to cool off at night requiring some tempering of the space at night for comfort.
We have in this city used time clocks as a means of boiler control for the bridge months of the heating season and the boiler was required to start from a cold { ambient temperature} start to produce steam. As we are all aware, the condensing load of old cast iron rads are large and it takes some time for the farhtest rads to start to heat. This lady was used to this type of heating and I am sure cursed the long time it took for some of the apartments to become heated. So in all innocence she removed the vent from the rads on one of the bedrooms { again probably from prior apartments} that removal of the vent seemed to hasten the heat to her space.
She retired for the evening with her little folks and I am sure she did not give the rad vent one little thought. Finally, the boiler reached sometime in the night a full steaming capacity.
The next day early in the morning { I remember the fire trucks this apartment building was not to far from our house} one of the tenants thought they saw smoke coming from under the door of this womans apartment and called the fire house.
I am forever grateful I was not the poor firefighter that broke down the door to the suite. The woman and her children were found in their beds --sufficated from the steam that had poured out of the rad venter hole. They tried to blame the poor mechanic that changed the venters with negligance but: the vent was found in drawer in a piece of furniture in the bedroom -- what had happened was all too evident.
Please ,to one and all, when we change venters give the apartment lessor information regarding removal of venters tell them how dangerous it it to remove a vent and what the outcome could be if it is left off.
Secondly, Locktite and other corporations have come out with pipe sealants which once applied and cured require tools to remove the fitting the sealant is applied to. This will it difficult: if not impossible for the average apartment renter to be able to remove the vent from the rads.

Bob_19

Why???

Is this a 2 pipe steam sys? if so why vent in the space.
I think I read all of the post correctly, if I did I can't understand why with operating traps that would be done.
Now venting risers in un-occupied spaces sounds logical, reduces accidents due to malfunction of vent.

It is sad to think this happened when it was avoidable.

Steamhead

Wow!

Jack, I've never heard of someone suffocating from steam.... I wonder if the steam was acidic? We read in "Lost Art" that lack of proper venting can cause condensate to turn into a mild carbonic acid. Could this have the same effect on the human body as carbon monoxide does?

If those radiators were slow, maybe the vent on the steam main wasn't big enough. There is NO reason that the rads at the end of a steam main should heat slower than those close to the boiler. If you're involved with this system, measure the length and diameter of each steam main and we can tell you what vents are needed to get steam to all radiator takeoffs quickly. In fairness to the installer, this information is not as widely available as it needs to be. But you've come to the right place to get it.

Also, the system's operating pressure should be checked. Most steam systems were designed to circulate steam throughout the system at 4-10 ounces and to not need more than 2 pounds to heat the building on the coldest day of the year. If the building has had insulation, weatherstripping and other improvements added, you might be able to reduce the operating pressure to a pound or less, using a Vaporstat instead of a Pressuretrol. To do this successfully, the vents need to be sized properly (see previous paragraph).

In the old days, they made locking devices to keep people from taking vents off radiators. Loctite might be a good substitute. But you mention "traps" on the radiators as well as vents- the two don't go together. If the rads have traps, they don't need vents. The air goes out thru the traps into the dry return and is vented at some central point. If you're not sure, post some pictures here.

Let us know how this works out.

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Robert O'Connor_4

Is this

Is this for real or is it a hoax?

Bob_19

I Thought

the same thing, did sound kinda funny.
Someone mentioned carbonic acid exposure, I thought of that and what does happen is carbonic acid in the return lines will de-compose to CO2 at room temp quickly, but I doubt a small system will produce alot.
How about drowning from inhaling all that water vapor, just don't know.

JackEnnisMartin

venters

Steam head thank you for your letter it made me think. This horrible accident happened about 25 years ago and the only reason it came to mind is the fact one of the firefighters called on that day is an old friend. You are of course competely correct it was a two pipe system and of course it did not have steam traps. The story was recounted to me shortly after the incident and he mentioned two valves were changed per rad. Perhaps in retrospect he could of meant the venters I do not know. I have only seen the actual boiler installation once and that was shortly after the incident and I do not ,in all candor, want to ever visit this apartment house again. As for the pressure ,I have run across alot of systems that should be two pounds but were run at nine -- I learned along time ago do not give advice if you are not asked. Why these people died was stated in The Winnipeg Free Press as suffication by the medical exminer. I know the reputation of the person who worked on this job and he is above reproach . Now for some of the ridiculous things postulated as this is some kind of a sick joke. I have seen too many deceased people to ever take death as a joke. And Maddog it seems you believe in letting the other guy make an unknowing mistake and pay the ultimate price for it -- I would suggest you should look into another line of work it is entirely too easy to hurt or kill someone in this line of work you have to care -- you are working on systems that can and will kill youor your customer In the event anyone wants to look up the newspaper records look in The Winnipeg Free Press and search around the early part of the eighties.

Mad Dog

Listen up! and you listen up good! Mr Jack Ennis Martin!

You will not find a more conscientous, responsible, and honorable tradesman than me. I'm doing this going on 18 years and have never, ever had a situation where anyone was put in danger because of what I installed. I am meticulous and safety concious to the point that I am told I'm being ridiculous and that I think of scenarios that will never happen. You really do have gall to suggest otherwise, and I do take it as a personal attack. If you read carefully, I said that it is impossible to permanently safeguard one's work so that NO ONE EVER !! can tinker with it or undo what you did. Unless one is engaging in penal institutional -type work, i.e., tamper=proof everthing, it is ridiculous to assert that no one can come in after the fact and "play " around. Examples: a handyman can unscrew my relief valve piping and put a plug in it if he is trying to stop that darn! thing from spillin' all over the floor. I've seen homeowners and bad boiler men cut off the leads to a spill switch and leave them jumped out because he was tired of the no heat calls. I could go on and on, but I've made my point. Sorry Jack Ennis Martin, Matt Mad Dog Sweeney is here to stay in his beloved trade. Mad Dog

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Robert O'Connor_4

i think

I think Mr. Martin is just trying to stir things up!!!

Steamhead

Now Now, Guys

keep it cool.

Jack, that's a "two-pipe, air-vent" system. It would have had shutoffs on the supply and return connections to the radiator, and the rad would have had an air vent. This was basically a transitional system, an early attempt to give the user some control over heat delivery. It was replaced by the many Vapor systems starting in the early 20th century.

It's not unusual for a heating man to get confused when faced with one of these systems. I ran into one about ten blocks from my own house and the owner was about to trash it since he thought no one could solve its problems. I did, and he's real happy with it now.

25 years ago, information on steam systems was rather hard to find. Then came Dan Holohan and the world was forever changed. Now I can say for sure that if Dan H, Noel, Mad Dog, Dan F or myself, or any other practitioners of The Lost Art of Steam Heating worked on a system like that, there would have been no need for the tenant to even think about taking off the air vent. Every radiator would be HOT!

If I see a system running at too high a pressure, I "always" mention it. Building more pressure than needed wastes fuel, and this is not in my customer's best interest.

BTW- is that system still operating? I would jump at the chance to work on it, if only to quell the restless spirits of those who died there. Unfortunately, Winnipeg is a long way from Baltimore..........

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Mad Dog

I concor MR. O'conner

I don't care for that. Mad Dog

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

That story has ALL of the characteristics of an "Urban Myth". Not even a very good one...

If it were at all easy to suffocate in a small space filled with low-pressure steam there would be no such thing as a steam room.

Maybe with a steam main but the little hole for aan air vent???

Tony Conner

You Can...

...use steam for fire suppression. We used it for fire protection on the pits that the rail oil cars dumped into for supplying fuel to the generation plant I worked in. Steam CAN suffocate you. I'm having a hard time imagining that happening in an apartment heated by low pressure steam, though. I think that it would take a long, long while (if ever) for low pressure steam to kill somebody as described. The temperature in the apartment would have become gradually unbearable first. Not to mention the steam condensing and water dripping everywhere. The apartment occupants would have complained about the steam blowing out of the rad, the water all over the place, and the temperature long before any fatality would have occured.

Have there ever been any other reports of fatalities like this in any other location that anyone is aware of? Even in much larger cities like New York, where both the population, and number of buildings heated by steam is far, FAR larger?

This has the ring of a story being started by somebody who sells hot water heating equipment looking to tag "steam" as being dangerous.

Mad Dog

Thank you for weighing in Tony....as a steam guy, you are a....

superheavyweight in my eyes. Having grown up in NYC and working there for many years - many side by side with the great Local 638 steamfitters - I too think it could very well be folklore, a wive's tale, disinformation, or just plain bull. High pressure steam accidents can kill - instantly, and there have been quite a few in NYC over the years. The old time steamfitters I worked with told of guys breaking off a valve and that the space was filled instantaneously with superheated high pressure steam. A person's first reaction upon this happening is to open one's mouth and gasp at the coming horror, at which time their lungs and internals are seared beyond repair. Much like they victims of Pompei, people have been found "frozen" in place. I'm sure some of our navy vets can tell us stories about h.p. steam leaks. I remember reading about one in a NYC high rise, where people were still seated at their desks - dead....no time to react. I stand my ground that this story is fishy - in its cause and effect on the investigative side at least. It may very well have been in the Winnipeg paper, but I would posit that the investigation was based on an erroneous premise. Mad Dog - HERE TO STAY!!!!!

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Mad Dog

Isn't it funny how these \"factual\" accounts are not backed up

very well at all. Just throw it out there,...hopefully someone buys it..and if they don't just let it fly. I haven't seen a defense here, only attacks. Oh well! Mad Dog

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Steamhead

Whether or not

the steam was the killer, this story underscores the importance of proper set-up and maintenance on these systems. We now have another selling point for a main-vent upgrade:

"If the end radiators are cold, the tenant might take the vent off the radiator, and if they forget to put it back on the room will fill with steam, and the boiler may run out of water, and if that LWCO doesn't stop the burner........ But I can make all the radiators heat up at the same time!"

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Mad Dog

You are right on the mark, as usual

Frankie Boy!!!!!! MD

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