Windmill Generators

Noel Kelly

Cogeneration!

You know where I'm coming from on this one Tony. If 2/3 of the potential energy is lost either through waste heat or transmission, then surely it makes sense to address these losses. Cogeneration has got to be the way to go.
Noel K.

Noel Kelly

Cogeneration!

You know where I'm coming from on this one Tony. If 2/3 of the potential energy is lost either through waste heat and transmission, then surely it makes sense to address these losses. Cogeneration has got to be the way to go.

Noel K.

Tony Conner

Yep...

...that's why I posted below about district energy. You use each unit of fuel at least twice. Three times if you can do it right. (Actually, the "three times" bit only works if you need cooling, in addition to electrical generation and heating.)

There would still be a need for a lot of the big, base-load central generating stations, and to make it work economically, there has to be a ready market to take the electricity generated, plus a nice, year round thermal load. It's tricky to get the right technical fit for all of this, and have it actually work economically as well. But it's a much more sensible strategy than the windmill and solar ideas that are being tossed around.

Tony Conner

Co-Generation...

...and district energy are pretty closely tied. You can use the same unit of fuel twice if you generate electricity with it, then use the exhaust heat for steam/hot water. If you can get absorption cooling into the scenario, overall plant efficiency is really impressive. If you're relying on space heating/cooling for your thermal load though, the shoulder periods of spring & fall kick you pretty hard. There's also the issue of what to do with the electricity generated at off-peak times. Everybody wants your power to hit the peaks, but during nights and weekends, they don't need it. It's tricky to find the right mix of power requirements and thermal load, and basically, the thermal load drives the project. You have just GOTTA have a place that wants the heat, pretty much year round. Plus the electrical and thermal loads need to closely match when they occur. It's no good if the electical peak is 10 AM, but the thermal peak is at 6 AM. It still makes lots more sense, both technically and economically, than solar or wind farms - especially if you can get some waste fuel into the mix. I think there should be more research into used motor oil, kitchen fat, even old tires. You wanna see BTU value? Check out what's in a tire - it's incredible. And have we got used tires, or what? Tens of millions more every year. They need to be burned properly though. Spend some research money on that one, and deal with two problems at once.

WillH

Wind turbine info

Enron bought the turbine mfg. Zond which was a Dutch company, a couple of years before Enron took the dive. General Electric subsequently purchased Enron's wind turbine manufacturing unit.

Wind energy plants typically costs around $1,000-$1,500 a kilowatt installed. A Natural gas fired simple cycle gas turbine plant costs around $500 a kilowatt. Combined cycle gas turbine Nat. Gas plants around $750. Coal plants are higher around $1,750 and up. Nuke is pushing $3,000 a kilowatt. Granted this is just the cost of the plant. It does not include fuel or the interconnection of power/transportation of power.

With these wind plants, the power that is created by the turbine is not immediately dropped into the grid, all of the turbines will be interconnected via a transmission line of somesort and then the transmission line will interconnect with a substation transferring the power to the grid for its actual use. Hence, no flicker with lights at the house next door.

I have a few issues with wind though I think it is a valuable source of power. #1 It takes a lot of space to put in a sizable quantity of turbines. #2 Wind turbine farms are neat to look at once, beyond that they are ugly.
#3 The power is not reliable, typically your wind generation is not when your power needs are at their peak.
These plants have to run constantly but in a deregulated marketplace what is the power worth? Not much, particularly if there is no demand. These wind farms are located in the middle of nowhere, the line losses and transportation costs of this power do not make it competitive with local sources of generation.

Ideally, I'd like to see some communities and residents put in the small wind turbines, 400 watts or so, and interconnect them with their own homes and businesses much like you would with putting in a roof top solar array.

Unknown

FLICKER FACTOR

as I understand it, the Flicker is the sunlight through the vanes, or blades. It isn't the power in the house. It effects the unpaid neighbors, not the customers down the line.

I agree with what you post about practicality. I agree that if a fuel is burned, the heat that is given off isn't waste, unless the utility declares it so. Heat is a resource, not a waste product. Local co generation makes the most sense to me, from the waste point of view. But where will the power come from for people that won't live where this can occur? Space and money are required to make and use power effectively, if you include using the heat as part of the equation. Most people want only the power, because of the cost. The heat gets wasted.

It KILLS me that the power may be used as heat.

Noel