W/M Ultra vs Munchkin?

Mike Abbott

Hi Folks,

Please forgive this issue, which has been discussed before. I did review the archives to seee what's been said in the past, and I also saw the Ultra recall notice that was recently posted. Since the Ultra has been on the market for a little while now, I hoped the experts here might have a more up-to-date opinion than the earlier posts when it was new.

I am a GenContractor who is building a 4000 sq. ft. house for myself. ICF walls and spray-foam roof, so it's going to be very tight. It looks like we'll be heating/cooling with a hi-velocity hot air system, with a propane boiler. My installer has offered me a choice between the W/M Ultra PHD or a Munchkin. He's suggesting the Ultra, but I don't think he knew about the recall. I'm concerned about the aluminum used in the Ultra block, as well. Do you folks have some advice for me?

I have seen some great endorsements of the Vitodens here. How much extra would I expect to pay to get one of those in my system over these other choices?

Thanks a lot for letting a newbie interject. I appreciate your shared perspectives.

Mike

Unknown

Mike I do not

feel one is any better than the other. Just weigh out the benefits of each.

The Ultra recall is not a complex problem related to the operation of the Ultra itself. It is a problem with the gas valve mounting screws not being fully tightened during assembly and having possibly come loose in shipping. A good installer should check that anyway. They are obvoiusly concerned about a gas leak and consequences of same. That recall in no way is related to the overall operation of the Ultra.

The Munchkin and the Ultra folks have conducted training on both at my center. I know the local folks here in New England very well and both are good companies. They will back up there products with good service and assistance when needed. Again as new systems go they are equally good each with its own particular plus or minus.

My son is building a house and we have looked at both but felt for what we wanted and needed neither fit the bill. Most of all make sure you get a good installer.

Tony_8

recall

was only for some loose screws and a union in the internal gas supply train. I've seen worse things than that. Aluminum has been used for long enough to prove itself. So has SS. Footprint is smaller w/ WM. More "out of the box" features I think. (reset, priority,etc.) WM has a longer warranty too. Probably comes down to personal preference, availability, and experience w/ particular product.

Unknown

The Good Stuff

Just an observation and I'm sure this is not like you at all Mike, but Its funny how when builders build their own homes they allways seem to want the good stuff. I often wonder why such attention to detail is so often overlooked by builders when the bottom line is all that seems to really matter on their homes for sale.

To answer your question; All of the boilers that you mention in your post are excelent products. All Very Good Stuff. The one that is the very best is the one that your heating contractor has had the most experience installing and is most comfortable working on in the middle of the night on a degree day when it fails.

Without discussing pricing in this forum, I can say that you can expect to spend substantially more for the Viessmann. How much extra would you be willing to spend for the european boiler knowing full well that it is just a machine? Machines will break. When yours breaks make sure that someone in your area can service that boiler.

G.W.

John MacGregor_2

> feel one is any better than the other. Just weigh

> out the benefits of each.

>

> The Ultra recall is

> not a complex problem related to the operation of

> the Ultra itself. It is a problem with the gas

> valve mounting screws not being fully tightened

> during assembly and having possibly come loose in

> shipping. A good installer should check that

> anyway. They are obvoiusly concerned about a gas

> leak and consequences of same. That recall in no

> way is related to the overall operation of the

> Ultra.

>

> The Munchkin and the Ultra folks have

> conducted training on both at my center. I know

> the local folks here in New England very well and

> both are good companies. They will back up there

> products with good service and assistance when

> needed. Again as new systems go they are equally

> good each with its own particular plus or

> minus.

>

> My son is building a house and we have

> looked at both but felt for what we wanted and

> needed neither fit the bill. Most of all make

> sure you get a good installer.

John MacGregor_2

Ultra vs Munchkin

Mike,
My only concern with any aluminum boiler is that we put antifreeze in almost all of the boilers we install and we don't use ethylene glycol because of pollution problems and boilers with elastomeric seals instead of steel nipples will be destroyed by ethylene. The propylene antifreeze needed to protect aluminum boilers is prohibitively expensive ($50/gal net!), standard propylene glycol will eat away the aluminum. Since it is almost impossible to tell one antifreeze makeup from the other, we use only propylene and stay away from aluminum boilers of any kind.

As far as the boilers themselves, we have used W-M for over 40 yrs with good success, the Munchkin is relatively new and they have had some minor problems, but W-M has had them, too. As long as the mfr. steps up to the plate and handles the problem, I can't complain. Munchkin has done that, as has W-M.

kevin coppinger_4

I have installled...

only one munchkin. Nice unit.I to don't like the aluminum block idea.Time will of course tell.
The other hing about yopur project I noticed was the LP fuel. Why limit your self to that...If I notice from the metrocast email addres you are from NH. LP is pretty expensive here. More than oil AND you get less btu/ gal.w LP.There are LOTS of good options with oil and the venting options are good to. kpc
ps. any relation to john abbott?

Ted_5

I'm putting a Vitodens in my house

I agree, it is just a machine and some day it will need to be serviced. I feel it will need less in the long term. No recalls on the Vitodens, this boiler has been used in Germany since 1996, so if there were some bugs they would have worked them out over there. As far as service, the control tells you if there is a problem and how to fix it and any sevice man can handle this boiler. I wouldn't settle for any boiler because of the installer! Just my opinion I'm sure you can find a Viessmann installer in your area.
What is your location?

Ted

Unknown

munchkin, WM, Viessmann

Mike,

All I can tell you is I have seen all three of these. They are all good boilers. I use to sell WM. I currently sell the Munchkin (peerless) and the Vitodens. The biggist difference is this. When someone installs the WM or Munch they say how nice it is. WHen a contractor install a Vitodens they ask what their personal use discount is.

The Vitodens is a UNBELIEVABLE BOILER. I'll end up with one in my house one day.

Cost is not that huge of a difference. A lot depends on the BTU needed.

wheels
www.avcosupply.com

George_10

aluminum protection

There is an inhibitor package that is designed for aluminum that can be used with uninhibited propylene glycols. The inhibitor package is mixed 1 to 20 gallons or 1 to 40 gallons depending on the specific system. This can lessen the cost of "pre-mixed" glycols.
Aluminum is a unique metal that has to be "treated" with special chemistries. Normal inhibitor packages that are designed for mild steel will eat up aluminum and sometimes copper too. Consult your glycol manuf. or treatment professional to find out if the inhibitor packages used in your brand of glycol are designed for copper and aluminum. Please feel free to email me or check out this website for specifics on hydronic inhibitor packages. www.rhomarwater.com/products/

scott