Morals & Ethics 102

Paul Rohrs

(Mr.Yates- I didn't want to steal your thunder from the previous Threads)

Different issue, same premise of what would you do.

4,200 sqft residence, plumbing contractor is the general and builds a "display" home every 2-3 years. Wants radiant and "XYZ" wholesale made him a "smokin" deal on tubing. I don't know who did the heat load and design, if at all.

I am extremely busy with loyal contractors. This plumbing contractor thought it good business to get extremely inexpensive B-Pex. Let me be clear that I do not have any other facts. ( I sell Pex-A, couldn't beat him on price if I wanted to)

Months go by, plumbing contractor calls me out of the blue looking for a 34 air-separator for his new home. I wasn't there to take the call....Boss takes the call and tells him we do not have it in stock currently. (The truth, what a concept)

I am thinking 4,200 sqft home, all slab on grade radiant floor, he has got to have a few 10's of thousands in BTU's, flow......delta t...... I am thinking this guy is going to be in trouble if he thinks he is going to run a
34" primary loop and get gpmhd correct. Again, no clue as to zoning either.

Do I call him and say, "Rethink this?"...."Check with the guy who did the design and layout for you?".....Let him go to the school of hard knocks as it starts to get cold in the fall?...........

I have seen previous posts about culpability for skilled persons who did the design, only to have them "shopped" for price, then use the design anyway. You as a designer, are you going to take the time?

I have not sold one item on this job, don't have my companies time or money to bat clean up on this one. I am certain there are more issues.

What are you going to do?

PR

Paul Rohrs

Morals & Ethics 102

(Mr.Yates- I didn't want to steal your thunder from the previous posts)

Different issue, same premise of what would you do.

3,000 sqft residence, plumbing contractor is the general and builds a "display" home every 2-3 years. Wants radiant but "XYZ" wholesale made him a "smokin" deal on tubing. I don't know who did the heat load and design.

I did not have my feelings hurt (good business by the plumbing contractor to get extremely inexpensive B-Pex.)
Months go by, plumbing contractor calls me out of the blue looking for a 34 air-separator for his new home. I wasn't there to take the call....Boss takes the call and tells him we do not have it in stock currently. (The truth, what a concept)

I am thinking 3,000 sqft home, all slab on grade radiant floor, he has got to have a few 10's of thousands in BTU's, flow......delta t...... I am thinking this guy is going to be in trouble if he thinks he is going to run a
34" primary loop.

Do I call him and say, "Rethink this?"...."Check with the guy who did the design and layout for you".....Let him go to the school of hard knocks as it starts to get cold in the fall?...........

I have seen previous posts about culpability for skilled persons who did the design, only to have them "shopped" for price, then use the design anyway. You as a designer, are you going to take the time?

J.C.A._3

SAY NOTHING !

Wash your hands and walk . Nothing gained , nothing lost , no claims !Save yourself the problems that WILL be associated with a "price conciuos buyer". JMHO. Chris

J.C.A._3

Oh. by the way....

DO leave your card. They'll be calling you when all else fails. Don't ruin a great reputation for a buck. It somehow comes around to butt you in the hinney.

Troy_3

Wholesaler ethics

A local wholesaler that in my opinion really pushes the envelope on design gets local Plumber (Non heating professional) to install questionable designs very cheaply. His motive I believe is to SELL! When I get called in to tell frostbitten homeowner what went wrong the fly by night is no where to be found. My question- why isn't the wholesaler liable for his free design when it doesn't work? If I design a system I make it work! A rep told me a wholesaler has no culpability because the service ( swindling) was free. I told the last unhappy chap go after salesman x who you led around your house to design this mess. I feel then and only then will they be so compelled to short change a design to steal my work. Anyone else run into this?

Art Pittaway

Sour grapes

JCA is right, until it's not heating...it looks just fine, so whatever you say is sour grapes, precieved as a responce to the fact you can't "compete". My grandfather used to say, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing". Those that sell and those that buy on price alone are always at risk to be taken. Unfortunately the customer may not be able to see the difference and is caught in the middle. Since you don't know exactly what was done, the system may work for years...at some level of preformance and the customer may be happy, ignorence is bliss. I was asked to look at an installation that had run for years with NO provision for air control. The HO thought all the gurgling and air bleeding he did on the second floor was NORMAL! Until your asked directly I wouldn't go anywhere near it. IMHO, Art

Paul Rohrs_2

Grapes of Wrath

Art,
No sour grapes here.....
As it pertains to being undersold..so many trains of thought. Who goes out there with the intention of buying the cheapest Cadillac or Lexus? I don't ever try to be the least expensive package out there. I have some contractors who get a multiplier (a very good multiplier) so all of their packing lists or invoices have individual line pricing. They know exactly what they are paying for tubing,manifolds, etc. Everyone else gets "Lot Pricing". (i.e.-20 items 1 price.)

More importantly, do we want to start making "radiant systems" a commodity? I certainly do not.

So this contractor bought cheap tubing.....I would be willing to wager the wholesaler more that made up for it on the manifold,fittings, control "side of the house". A wholesaler who lands radiant jobs with liscenced contactors due to price only can have them all day. That does not concern me. Inevitably, the designerwholesale will be coughing up some "moola" to rectify this, and hopefully the end result will be that he needs professionals in the heating industry to correctly tackle this job.

Right now it is 100F outside and his heating system is working flawlessly. It's not running. I KNOW he is going to have issues when there is a call for heat. Maybe ignorance is bliss for this contractor.

Mad Dog

If the guy's not a friend........let him fall

flat on his face. Mad Dog

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Rick Kelly

People handling

Business ethics is a good subject because it combines the conflict of how we were taught right and wrong from our parents and teachers, and the law. As we all know, ethics and law are not synonoumous. When we are faced with a situation, we must consider the balance between the two. "Doing the right thing" might be right but perhaps not legal. Going by the book might cover yourself but leave you with a feeling that something's lacking in fairness.

When it comes to a situation where I'm competing against the supply house salesman who has just enough knowledge to convince someone without knowledge that they can do the job with a bit of help, I don't feel any obligation to offer my opinion. I get two or three jobs a year refitting incorrectly installed jobs. I really don't mind this work and the customer might even pay me more than what he paid out originally. That's not my problem. The more incompetants that get involved in the work that we do can make an industry look bad (think about this manufacturers, wholesalers, industry reps). On the other side of the coin is that it make a competant person look great and enables us to make the kind of money that we deserve. Most of us on this site spend a sizable amount of money each year on our continuing education, certifications, and networking efforts in an attempt to keep us at the top of our game.

When someone is concerned only about price, I leave them for the guys who decide that they can get their feet wet with a little help from their friends, only to find themselves in over their heads still holding on dearly to the anvil that the supply house sold them.

My business ethics are this: know what I'm doing, deliver everything that I've promised, and get compensated as well as I can for my efforts. Everything else is window dressing.

Wayco Wayne

You know,,,

You don't know he was going to put that air separator on the primary loop. Who knows? He may be putting on one manifold loop for some odd reason. You can't jump to conclusions just because you know where an air separator should go. He could be using it for a paper weight for all you know. (Where the volume it will be seeing will be very low and it will cause no trouble). Let it be and wait to see if it comes your way if it needs a fix. WW

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