Morals & ethics 101 - what would you do?

Glenn Harrison

Sell or install anything that is known to be harmfull or dangerous. Afterall, I have to be able to go home and face my wife and kids and be able to sleep at night!

hot_rod

just suppose

you lived and worked somewhere where your local codes prohibited installation of certain types of systems due to their potential for harming human health & provided a penalty of revoking your contractor's license if you did just that.

Would you:

A. Abide by the laws?

B. Find a loop hole in the laws that allows you to sell that same system directly to the homeowner & do so without letting them know the system is illegal in their area for contractors to install or that it poses a potential health threat?

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masterplumb

Potential health threat

If it were to cause me to lose my license, the answer would have to be no. In any case if a system possibly caused a health risk to any of my clients I wouldn't sell that type of system, legal or illegal. Chris

Unknown

this IS a rhetorical question, right?

I hate traps....



Why do you ask?

Is a domestic water heater involved?

Does this keep coming up, to the point of needing to do something?

What do you recommend, Pah?

Noel

Larry_7

I'll bite

My intuition tells me a big box store is involved...probably a heating appliance...my first guess would be an unvented appliance for a mobile home maybe?

Larry

hot_rod

strictly

theoretical, a made up scenario with no basis in reality - I think, therefore I ponder

I mean, suppose it was illegal for me to sell cigaretts over the counter to kids, but I found that selling them over the internet presented a loophole through which lots of kids would naturally flock to purchase. No admonition that it was illegal for them to purchase same, but surely lined my pockets with a bit of the green.

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hot_rod

the smell test

but, does it pass the smell test?

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Unknown

Ethics 101

I was once told when I was a young Apprentice,

"There are only ethics."

"There is no such thing as Bussiness ethics."

How true it is.

Larry_7

Of objectionable odors...

They probably just happen to also carry the latest high-tech air-freshening equipment for those pesky odors.

Larry

kevin coppinger_4

wrong is wrong...

and right is right no matter who does it...the key is potential for human harm...I like to sleep at night...kpc

Unknown

A harder question Dave,,,

Lets say I know of a respected radiant floor contractor who still sells open DHW/hydronic systems in an effort to reduce their cost.

He told me that he "feels comfortable selling them and has no intention of stoping." He believes "the health risks are way too small to lose any sleep over.

It is still not unlawfull in his area to connect these two systems. He risks not his professional license?

If you ask him he will tell you that he believes that he is being ethical. " Sleeps like a baby. "

*** If someone gets ill or worse, was he ethical? ***

The answer can be yes,,,, and no.

Unknown

Gary

Where does he put the backflow preventer? Are they required where you are?

Noel

Al Letellier

old adage

If it ain't worth doing right, it ain't worth doing.
Try to live by that one every day.

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hot_rod

How many here

go back yearly and test the backflow preventors they install on hydronic systems. I believe most codes require yearly testing on RPZ type backflow preventors.

If a homeowner were to get sick or die from a boiler backflow, then what.

If you drive without a seat belt, aginst the law in most states, and have a wreck, get injured, who is at fault.

Life is full of POTENTIAL health risk. Assigning level of risk is the tricky part.

Since 1990 there have been only a handful of reported legionella problems, according to the CDC site. Mostly potting soil episodes.

Last year 27 people died in Missouri from West Nile. Pretty easy to see where the CDC and state health officials assign the greatest risk, and dollars for public awareness, code changes, etc.

hot rod

[Deleted User]

However...

the same agency (CDC) also admits that the correct report for LP is severely under reported, and that of a sample of people tested at random for exposure to LP, 90 some percent proved positive for exposure.

Why increase your chances for inhaling Legionella Pneumophila...

Follow the money...there you will find the CDC.

ME

hot_rod

Why in the world

aren't we hearing more about this widespread problem?? Potentially 90% of the folks here on the wall could test positive for LP. Perhaps LP dates back to Roman times.

I'm not denying LP exisits, or that it CAN be harmful and potentially fatal. It just seems real odd that it is not in the news more. Seems Mad Cow, Whirling Trout, and duct mold gets more exposure

Why, exactly is that? Certainly not for a lack of "Shock Jock" looking to "break the news" to a nervous public, like the recent duct tape sales increase

Just trying to understand why this large of a potential health threat gets little if any public exposure. Certainly plenty of Gov agencies able to step in and protect the public, or issue a warning and steps to follow if you feel at threat.

hot rod

ScottMP

Back to Daves question

I hold a mster plumbers license which I believe intrust me to "protect the health of the nation". I would never install any system that would potentially put my customers in harms way.

I also grew up with parents who told me to do the right thing. You now its right or wrong in your heart.

For the people who tested positve for legionella, is a dormant ? Is it like many diseases that we all carry and do not present a problem untill the right conditons ?

I can not imagine that "stagnant" water could be healthy for anyone.

Scott



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kevin_5

Good Question

I have often wondered how many stores would sell cocaine to people if it were suddenly legal tomorrow.
The rationale seems to be, "If they're going to get it anyway, I might as well profit by it."
If a doctor can be found to suck an unborn child into a sink, I don't know why it would be hard to find a contractor whose consciense has no qualms about selling
or installing a potentially dangerous product.
HR mentions seat belt laws below. Is the government not hypocritcal when it's legal to abort children, but illegal to "endanger" them by neglecting to properly belt them in the car? Kevin

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Dave Yates (PAH)

Off of the thread topic, but deserves an answer

Here’s what I’ve learned regarding Legionella’s needs for amplification in potable water environments:

· A pH of 5.0 to 8.5

· Temperatures between 55 & 133 F, with the most ideal range falling between 75 & 120 and 95 to 100 being absolutely perfect. A recent Danfoss study found that the bacteria can survive hot flushes of 180 F & that pasteurization (suppression of LP’s numbers – not eradication) at 140 F requires approximately 20 minutes of contact time. Cysts (the exoskeleton of bugs) of amoebae provide a “Trojan Horse” within which LP sets up a nursery. Once chock full of the little stinkers, it literally busts open at the seams to spew them forth – I have that on video tape, which was provided to me by a German firm that has studied the LP bugs.

· Stagnation – even for brief periods of time allows for unchecked growth.

· Biofilms, which occur in all piping, natural rubber and iron provide food and shelter.

Now, I’m no rocket scientist, but I also don’t need a Seeing Eye dog to lead me to the conclusion that open cross-connected potable-hydronic systems provide all of the needed ingredients for amplification of the Legionella Pneumophilia Sero Group 1 bacterium.

We already know LP has the ability to kill. Do we really want to position a system that has such potential within a potable water system and place it within our customer’s homes? Do we really need to “see the bodies”?

What we don’t know and can’t know is the threshold for harm. How many bugs are too many? Well, why not you might ask & that’s a reasonable question – at least on the surface. The reason is quite simply explained by drawing a comparison to scalding rates for infants, children, adolescents, the infirm, elderly and middle aged. Those scalding temperatures and necessary contact times for harm vary widely based upon age and the individual’s health level. The same applies to Legionellosis. You can acquire it in a hospital (nosocomial) or out in the general community (CAP – community acquired legionellosis). The CDC believes CAP is widely unreported and that there are anywhere from 10,000 to 25,000 cases of CAP per year. A morbidity rate of 5% to 15% is also projected.

Six scientific studies of water heaters have been performed over the years. One study was tossed out due to the conditions under which it was conducted. The other five found varying percentages of LP infestations. Electric water heaters fared much worse that did the gas or oil fired units, presumably because of two things: cooler water layered at the tank’s bottom; and a readily available sediment layer for food.

Chlorine is not an effective biocide where LP is concerned and it dissipates in water as it is heated. Chlorine would need to be present in concentrations 10,000 times greater than current levels used in municipal systems.
So, what works? Constant circulation and temperatures maintained above 133 F. Return water temp limited to a low of 128 F. Separation of potable/hydronic is a no-brainer IMHO.

But what about the “free” A/C? Horse poop. You could float a battleship on that mile high pile of dung. Limited to flow rates and delta-T. Then there’s the mold issue and, once again, the pressure/flow/scalding issues created by the hundreds of feet of tubing. Plastic tubing is said to offer a more favorable environment than metal piping, but copper’s benefits against LP are severely limited & nil once a biofilm is established.

So, go ahead and install open systems. Me? I’m heading out to sit in the sun without sunscreen lotion and drink some alcoholic beverages, which will kill off some brain cells while I’m getting cancer. But that’s something I’m doing to myself with full knowledge of the risks. Open system customers aren’t given the option of being educated regarding the information I’ve listed here – and this is an abbreviated version.

So, should common sense and a wee bit of deductive reasoning rule the day? Or do we really need to have bodies stacked like cordwood outside the door? I sure as hell don’t need any additional evidence to convince me open systems are wrong – dead wrong.


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Dave Yates (PAH)

of helmets andseat belts

My State just passed legislation that lets the motorcycle rider decide about wearing a helmet, yet passed a law making seat belts mandatory. Huh?

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keith

what would I do?

I do my best to always remember that this is a small industry. We spend a lifetime trying to establish a solid reputation, why would I toss that out over something that doesn't sit right with me from the get go?

MikeB34

Legislators...Geniuses at work..

I know what you mean. Here in Ontario, Canada, a licensed gas fitter can't run a gas pipe for his brother without being a registered contractor (read bill him for the work, and pay taxes). but as the home owner with no knowledge of how to correctly and SAFELY install gas lines. He CAN do it!

So it's legal to potentially kill yourself and family.But You can't have someone who know do you a favour unless he is a business, charges you and declares it on his taxes..BUT he Does know how to do it.

Makes sense...NOT!

Mad Dog

I'll nibble, but its obvious this is a loaded question

Would I do something that "the code" may not "allow"? Maybe! If it made good, practical sense. If it could endanger anyone in any way absolutely NOT! Speaking of inane and silly laws: Great book, must read...."How law is suffocating America" by Philip K. Howard (a lawyer). This book convinced me to steer clear of law school. Mad Dog

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Unknown

I never saw a motorcycle with seat belts

or a school bus, either.

Strange, huh?

Noel

Paul Pollets

Great Oratory!!

Well said, Dave. Keep preachin'. Happy 4th!

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Glenn Harrison

School Buses around here have seatbelts on all seats. Illinois state law passed a few years ago, if I remember correctly.

Unknown

Noel

To answer your questions,

He uses a "check valve" located on the return from the heating manifold before entering the tee for incomming cold water. That and a T&P valve. No vacuum relief. It's a beautifully simple and sound system for him.

It shouldn't matter if a backflow device is required or not where I am. The question is one of Ethics. Even if it is leagal, is it ethical.

We must each decide this for our self.

PS; I allways use a flatplate HX like the colorfull one you liked so much in my other post. Thanks for the compliment.

Gary