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Steam Boiler
Bob_19
Member Posts: 94
Typically, under full load, what is the on-time in minutes, what is your off time also? Is operating differential 3lbs?
Increasing pressure will 99% of the time not increase efficiency, though there are to many variables to list here.
Increasing feedwater pump pressure will normally just increase HP requirments, and you'll need manufactures pump curve data to analyze this for efficiency. As long as feed pressure is good now for the application I would avoid trying to increase.
What is the temp of feedwater now? raising this alone can realize savings and increase efficiency if done/used correctly.
The most important issue here would be with what you have now. Is the burner setup and tuned properly? And most important, are ALL the traps in proper operating condition?
Proper venting is critical, non-condensables will play havec on proper steam generation and distribution.
Increasing pressure will 99% of the time not increase efficiency, though there are to many variables to list here.
Increasing feedwater pump pressure will normally just increase HP requirments, and you'll need manufactures pump curve data to analyze this for efficiency. As long as feed pressure is good now for the application I would avoid trying to increase.
What is the temp of feedwater now? raising this alone can realize savings and increase efficiency if done/used correctly.
The most important issue here would be with what you have now. Is the burner setup and tuned properly? And most important, are ALL the traps in proper operating condition?
Proper venting is critical, non-condensables will play havec on proper steam generation and distribution.
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Comments
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Steam Boiler
I just recently looked at a steam boiler (Weil-Mclain
> MGB) that was originally installed about 20 years ago in a fairly large building.
> The system is in need of chemical treatment. The owner is looking to
> increase efficiency and cut utility costs associated with the boiler. The
> boiler cycles on an off every 5 minutes and has a pressure control variation
> between 3 and 6 psi. The maximum pressure setting for the boiler is 15 psi.
>
> 1. Will increasing the pressure range (say, to between 3 psi and 10 psi)
> increase efficiency?
> 2. Will increasing the condensate pump pressure affect the efficiency of the
> boiler?
> 3. Will converting the boiler to a water boiler (this particular boiler has
> that capability) improve efficiency?
> 4. Is replacing the boiler the only method of improving system
> performance?0 -
I am not the pro here but I am sure they will follow up on this though. Turn the preasure down to less then 1 pound. The higher the preasure the less efficient it will be. Converting to water will probly cause more problems then it is worth.
Bryan0 -
no
1. No
2. No
3. No
4. No
Go to the find a contractor section of this web sight. You need help0 -
Steam
You say it is a fairly large building. Are the blueprints there or available? Find the boiler or hvac prints and find the set up for the pressure. The engineers would have figured this in unless alot has changed since construction. I don't want to give away information to the general public, we'll be out of a job. Find a steam expert in your area. Have him get the mud out, treat the water and go through the system. Mud doesn't transfer heat well.Make sure he checks all safety components like auto feed, lwco, pressuretrol and cleans them. One tip for all- use hi temp anti-seize on both sides of all gaskets- next time they'll peel off. Don't forget the bolts, etc. Make life easier for yourself and other tech's. A real pro showed me that years ago and I have been much happier ever since.0 -
steamer questions
I agree for the most part with NO answer to these questions. If your a heating contractor and you don't know the answers, you need help with this system.
While the boilers need help and a thorough cleaning on both sides of the casting, do as Dan say and slowing back out of the boiler room and look at the whole system. It was designed as a system and should work that way. A lot of the time, the real problem is not at the boiler. Look at traps, vents, control devices, stats, space usage, heating devices and radiators. They all must work to peak efficiency and together as a system.
We recently did this to a large building and did work throughout the system and cut operating costs by 65% !!!!
Take a good look around!!!
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Steam system
In order to run efficiently, the pressure in a steam system must be kept low. If the present level of pressure is needed so the steam will distribute all the way thru the system, you probably have an air venting problem. Fix it and crank the pressure down. BTW, the return pump serves as the vent for the dry return, but the steam mains may need to have vents added. Tell us more about this system.
Why do you say the boiler needs chemicals? If the boiler is clean, and the water's pH is normal, no chemicals are needed. If the boiler is dirty, clean it out the way Weil-McLain says to. If you don't have the instructions that came with the boiler, get another set. Many W-M boilers have gaskets between the sections, and chemicals can damage them.
Where is this job located?
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Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
Bryan, please leave the advice to the pros or
you really need to read The Lost Art of Steam Heating Thoroughly - buy a copy, I've got 7 or 8 copies...I keep them everywhere. While it is true that "cranking it down" is a sound practice, it is a relative thing to each boiler and heating system. Perhaps by doing just that he won't be able to heat the whole building - too many varaibles involved. Last time I checked, it's spelled pressure not "preasure" and it's "probably" Mad Dog
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Yes, Mr Dorsey it really might behoove you
to get someone in who has done this before. If you are a contractor, bring him in as a consulatnt. Flushing and properly cleaning boilers is an art. You don't want to crack a section or worse. Commercial boilers and systems are even more involved and have more ramifications. Find a Contractor will put you in touch with a good company. Good luck keep us posted. MaD Dog
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C'mon Matt
Bryan is just trying to help out , and he did say he is not an expert with it . No need to point out his spelling mistakes . By the way , regarding the thread about fixing the leaking steam pipe , even an expert with steam will do things that go against grade , like using copper returns .0 -
That's an apples to oranges analogy ....Jr.
Nobody, including me, ever said that copper returns aren't safe. But An epoxy repair does have the potential to do some damage if it doesn't hold...right or wrong? Sorry I'm a stickler for good grammar. Md
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I have no clue
about epoxy repairs , never tried it . But I might try it in the future after hearing that Kframe and others , including you , tried it and in some instances have been holding for decades . Is it the best choice for a repair ? Not likely , but in a pinch it works . And you're right that it isn't as safe as a whole new pipe . I didnt mean to imply that you said using copper on returns is unsafe . Sorry about that . But Matt , you and I know you didn't correct Bryan's spelling for spelling sake . Lets keep it civil . Take care .0 -
grammar
I believe the proper grammar for this posting would be, "No one including myself",ever said that copper returns aren,t safe. I also believe you never start a sentence with the word "but". Sister Ruth Therese my stickler of a grammar teacher, would never have approved of such grammar.0 -
spelling
Consulatnt is spelled c o n s u l t a n t, and MaD Dog is spelled Mad Dog. Just happened to notice that.0 -
Hey , theres no comma
between n and t , in the word aren't . Its a hyphen or apostrophy , or... ahh I forget what it is . Uh oh , don't go proofreading my posts . I'm sure I have alot of mistakes too .0 -
how about that
somebody's always watching!0 -
Looks like you need to go back to The Good Sister
yourself for some grammar studies. I guess you missed the class on public speaking too since you need to use cute, little pen names - pun intended! MaD doG
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pitching
Sounds to me like someones pretty good at pitching and not so good at catching. O'h and MaD Dog your mom must have given you that cute name!!
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You're kidding with the comma, Mr. Finepoint, right?
It's aren't....haven't not aren,t...haven,t. Anytime a letter is omitted the single quotation mark is used in its place. Yes, you are correct Ron. Bryan annoyed me with his "bickering" comment and weak suggestion. I just had to give him a little tweak - fair game, right? It's been done to me too. I'm glad the guy is trying to get in to the fray. It just enhances the debate. I play loose with spelling and grammar sometimes for the sake of expediency or when I want to use slang to set a mood or make a point. Sure! I make my mistakes, but I know I'm real good at grammer and englich, and even more better at spellin (it's a joke, relax!). I really do try to be "civil," but I don't think unqualified people should be giving advice. That goes for me too. If you haven't noticed, I give advice if and only if I really know what I'm talking about, as do you. There are some very knowledgeable homeowners and lay people here that really do know what they are talking about - and I applaud them. I get a big kick out of going to a house with a steam problem and the ho has his - and yes quite a few hers - copy of Lost Art out and they're helping me troubleshoot the system. Many of them really do understand it. I respect them for that, and they respect us for being able to correct the problems. On civility: I know I can be zealous, blunt, brash and a bit aggressive sometimes (why does anybody think a Mad Dog would be a lap dog....I got the moniker for a reason). I may growl sometimes, but I rarely bite. Look, I know what I know, and I am very passionate about it. I used to be called "osha man" when I was a shop steward in the union. I am very serious about safety, and if I think for one second, something could be potentially dangerous, I will condemn it with all my might. It is not my aim to make friends and play nice here. It is my aim to pass on my experiences when I see fit, and to learn from all of you. I have become close with a few folks here, I correspond with several interesting homeowners from around the country on a weekly basis, and I always enjoy seeing you, Ron Jr (when are we gonna meet Ron Sr????), at the seminars - we both love Killian's! Once again, I have used epoxy quite a bit. I have used it on drain lines and wet return lines. I would not use it on the steam side of anything, except if I knew I would be coming back the next day to make the proper repair. In that case I would try to double it up with a steel clamp of some sort. With God's blessing and via my own cautious approach, I have never had anything come back to bite me. I've been called ridiculous, too much, over the top, et cetera. Forget the lawsuit, it would KILL ME if something my company did hurt someone in any way - I'd rather take the injury myself. Our customers have found us because we always do the proper repair - whether we make money at it or not. We never take shortcuts and they appreciate that. They call us in because they are tired of the majority of companies today that go for the quick fix and charge then charge alot anyway. Sorry if I beat up on anybody too much, I really am fun guy to hang out with. Anyone wanna go out for drinks/ I'll buy the first round. Mad Dog
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punctuation
Damn!!! OK give me 5 points off for punctuation.0 -
Actually, I hate baseball altogether, but
I'm pretty good with bat. I always preferred activities that allowed one to hit another one , without the legal ramifications, i.e., football, boxing & wrastlin', rugby, hockey...wanna come out an' play???? I can take a spanking when it comes my way - when I deserve it. I earned my nickname and you earned yours; SISSY! It's very easy to talk trash when you're hiding behind mommy's dress. Enough of this...if you wanna keep playin' email me. Mad Dog
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Speaking of a few drinks
Why don't you come out to the get together-dinner on the night before Alan Mercurio's Brookhaven seminar ? So far its Alan , Noel , Ken Secor , Scott Lutz , myself and hopefully Chris Aiello . I believe the dinner is Monday , July 8 .0 -
I really wanted to make it to that one, but.....................
I'll be away with the family that weekend - first vacation in several years. July 8th is a tuesdsay - check the calendar...Say hello to my old flat rate sparring partner, Ken Secor....who wooda thought we'd get along so well in person - we had a nice time at Wetstock 1. I find that sometimes the people that you agree with on everything here, you might not have anything in common on a social level and vice versa. When it's party time I go with the hard chargers. That's what makes life so interesting: Although you may agree with someone on the major issues, you might find that they really aren't good people. Conversely, the wack jobs (like that superfreak with the body piercing) could be a good kind hearted person. I never underestimate anyone, and I don't judge a book by the cover. We'll hook up at my open house run...I'll get a keg of Killians for us...it will probably be late august or september.....all will be welcome...Hey I see, that you're really gettin hooked on them there drop headers...I can't help myself either...it's hard to go back....nice steam work Ronny.....Kenny looks like a good boiler man and like he likes to throw a few back (book by his cover? nah I bet I'm right!)...bring him too. If you guys are interested we are having the annual Nassau County Board of plumbing Examiners picnic on wednesday, July 9th up in Oyster Bay. It starts at 1pm and it's $35 a head...all yas can eat, clams, burgers dogs BEER!!!!!!!!volley ball, horseshoes, and just a good bunch of plumbin' and heatin' folk. Let me know if the boys are interested I got's the tickeys Mad Dog
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We stayed until dark, draining the keg
and then hit main street in Oyster Bay for a few more in the Spirit of one of our best presidents, The first Conservationist, and hard charger himself, We drank where Teddy used to stop for a pint.......Teddy Roosevelt....A Manly Man!!! BULLY!!!!!!! Mad Dog
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Mad Dog,
Sorry I was unable to defend myself. I am not always glued to my computer so I have not been able to respond. I would like to make a couple of points. First off on the spelling, that was not my strong suit in school. Thank you for pointing it out. I am always looking for ways to improve. Second I made it clear I was not an expert. There were no responses to the original post after an hour. So I added 2 quick points. Were either correct? I do believe that they were followed up and seemed to be the same response that I gave. As far as the Lost Art already own it as well as the now coveted Lost Art Companion, and a couple of other of Dans books. And last but not least my bickering comment, was I off base? I could care less about bickering. It seemed to me that it was getting to the point of name calling and what good does that do? As far as I saw it the case was closed and as I pointed out to you in our email I agreed with you and your solution. I also told you that I respect you and your opinions so I dont know why I am getting bashed? It really doesnt bother me, but I really dont understand it.
Bryan
PS This post may contain spelling and gramatical errors.
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I dont know how my last reply will be taken. I hope in the positive way it was intended. I am going home now so I will not be able to reply until tommorrow. Have a great weekend.
Bryan0 -
Sparring
Your doing a great job. Keep up the good work. Your very impressive. How does that saying go, Your a legend in your own mind! P.S. Oh by the way great comebacks.0 -
No, Bryan I am sorry
I was so hard on ya. Sorry you took some stray fire that was aimed at the other two. My spelling can be terrible if I'm not careful too. I owe ya a couple of beers. You're a Gentleman. Mad Dog
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Mad Dog,
I am glad that we have this all sorted out. When you look at the whole situation its really kind of funny. Take care.
Bryan0 -
Yeah.....I like to get it goin' like that
once in a while. Now, that's move on...how's 'bout them steam system huh? MadDog
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