Repair/replace one pipe steam supply?

Jason

I recently bought a 120 year old house that has one pipe steam. According to the previous owner's handyman, one radiator on the 3rd floor was removed long before I bought the house because the supply pipe was leaking somewhere. I'd like to reinstall the radiator but wonder how difficult or expensive this is for a professional to identify and repair the leak or replace the entire supply pipe in a 3 story house. I've learned enough from this site about what tasks are and are not within my abilities and this is certainly one for the pros.

I've checked the find a contractor area and there aren't any listed particularly near Providence RI. I know I see frequent posters to the wall from RI. So who are the good steam guys to do this? I don't even know who to call to get a quote.

Unknown

Try Chuck

He would know, in your area...

http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm.cfm?id=143&Step=30

kframe

The most logical place for the pipe to leak is at the joints where they are screwed together -- the threads eat through.

I'm assuming from the way you're talking that the pipes are buried in the walls, which just makes things more difficult and annoying, but certainly NOT impossible for a relatively handy homeowner to tackle!

Going to have to make a little leap of faith, and apply a little logic here, which may or may not be valid...

The first step in the theory is to try and determine just how long the individual pieces of pipe are that have been screwed together to create the risers.

Doing that may be tricky and difficult if all of the risers are buried in the walls.

Start in the basement, and where the pipes go up into the house see if you can see up into the wall chases. Use a powerful flash light or spot light, and if you're lucky, with balloon framed houses, you might be able to see all the way to the top.

Chances are, though, that your view is going to be blocked by the pipes going up through floors. Quite frankly, if the pipes go between the walls, there's no problem with cutting a hole around the pipes to get a view up.

If you're able to determine that they used, say, 12 foot sections of pipe, that will allow you to then start doing some measurements from the appropriate riser up through the house and make some educated guesses where the couplings are.

Then it's a matter of cutting holes in the walls to get access.

If you're lucky, you'll sink a small view hole right over the riser, and right at the coupling. Chances are you're going to have to enlarge the hole and use a piece of stiff wire (coat hanger) to fish around in the wall and find the riser, and then up and down along the riser to find the coupling.

Once you've located the riser and the coupling, you can make a hole in the wall at the appropriate location and inspect the coupling.

One word of caution! Your house is old enough to have knob and tube wiring. Use EXTREME caution when digging around in the walls.

Chances are also pretty good that the pipe will be stained as a result of the leak. If you find a joint with a big stain on the pipe below it, but nothing above it, you know you've got the right joint.

Now that you've hopefully found the leaking joint, you need to fix it.

Probably the easiest and best solution for a permanent fix is JB Weld, which you can get from any decent hardware store.

Use a dremel and sanding wheel, or emery cloth and a little muscle power, to clean the area all around the leak. You want nice bright metal with no paint, rust, dust, etc.

Then apply the JB Weld as directed on the container.

Hopefully you only have a single leak, and it won't be too hard to find or repair.

Quite frankly, this IS a job you can do yourself, if you're willing to dig into your walls and fix them when you're done.

I'd be very surprised if A) you needed to have an entire section of pipe replaced and you would find someone who would agree to replace a section of pipe unless there were horrendous problems.

Over the years I repaired several leaks at the couplings in the steam system in my parents house. It's not hard, but god can it be self-satisfying!

Jason

there's more to this story

Thanks for the replies. I've actually used jb weld to repair a leak in my basement in a small horizontal run. It was about an inch away from a joint. I repaired it exactly as kframe described. But even after I was finished I wouldn't have considered it "fixed". It's patched but not what I would have assumed a professional might do. I don't know how long I'll get out of that repair simply because so much of the pipe was corroded. About half the wall thickness of the pipe was corroded in abouut an inch or two diameter. I don't expect that patch to last years and years. But's it was good enough in January. I don't know why it didn't occur to me that my leaky riser would be a similar situation.

I must admit poking somewhat random holes in my walls or my tenants walls to look for the leak is not very appealing. But I can't think of any other method to locate the leak.

Thanks to all for this great forum. I learned a ton this winter.

steve_6

repairing or replacing pipe

any reputable plumber can cut out and replace sections of iron pipe. If they want to replace it with copper, tell them to hit the road!

kframe

Actually, JB Weld is about as permanant a fix as anything your going to be able to find, and you'll find professionals who do use it. It's heat rated to well above a steam system's top heat delivery, and once it dries it's pretty much an inert material. Just about nothing touches it chemically.

Cutting into pipes to replace sections on a house this old can be a complete crap shoot. I've seen one situation where the pipes were decayed just badly enough that threading the joint wasn't possible.

The solution? A smooth coupling and lots of JB Weld!


As for the corrosion spot that you fixed? Most likely a weak spot in the pipe caused by a slag inclusion. That gave the corrosion a head start.

Unknown

What do you do for work, Kframe?

That advice isn't very proffessional. If the guy has 100 year old pipes, and wants to change them because the walls are thin, and asks for advice on finding the right guy for the job, who are you to tell him that that is not the best choice.

I agree on JB Weld being a good product, but let it go this time. I think, in this case, that this is not good advice. I think he is on the right track, without the epoxy distractions.

I've been doing this for a while. I'm pretty confident about this.

Noel

Geno_2

epoxy

I'd have to agree with Noel. Epoxy is great at 3a.m. to get you out of a jam and return later to do it right or temp. patch a cracked boiler but not as a way of life. Get the pipes replaced in the summer and keep that steam system. Don't let anyone talk you into going to baseboard, you'll regret it. Talk to a couple of companies and see what they say and go with the best and most logical suggestion not the cheapest. Good luck.
Geno

kframe

Noel,

I'm a writer, not a steam fitter. I don't think I've made any bones about my advice being of a non-professional nature, based on my experience and nothing else.

No, I don't have the kind of experience that you all have, I've made that very clear, or at least I hope I have.

But, tell me.

Is there anything technically wrong with the advice that I've given?

Please tell me, and I'm quoting from the oringal poster's message, where his only desired option is to replace the pipes: "I'd like to reinstall the radiator but wonder how difficult or expensive this is for a professional to identify and repair the leak or replace the entire supply pipe in a 3 story house.

Repair or replace.

I was giving him options for repair, Noel. Options that I've used. Options that professionals have used. Options that work.

If the JB Weld wasn't an option that works, why can directions on using it to repair radiators be found in the monographs on this very site?

Primarily, I think you're making some assumptions that aren't warranted:

1. That the homeowner wants to replace the pipes instead of repairing them.

2. That the pipes have to be replaced, and can't be repaired.

3. That only a professional can handle jobs such as these (if that's the case, the handyman industry wouldn't exist in the United States).

In summary, I was giving the home owner something he did ask for -- options, including options that he didn't know that he might have had.

And judging from his later posts, in which he indicates that he's already made a similar repair in the system using JB Weld.

No offense, Noel, but I think your castigation is misplaced.

kframe

Geno,

Be sure to check out the "how to" advice contained in other areas on this board.

Including the article on how to make pretty much permanent repairs to steam radiators using JB Weld.

22 years ago I made a repair to a leaking steam coupling on the system in my parent's house using A+B Epoxy compound.

22 years later (23 this winter) and the repair is still solid and holding steam.

Mad Dog

Your enthusiasm is appreciated k Frame, but

your advice really is shaky. Epoxy is only a band aid. I'm not one of these 3rd or forth generation contractors that think that homeowner's shouldn't change a washer or even a faucet once in a while (my old man was a first class horseman and he did a lot of the repairs at home. He drew the line at faucets and an electrical outlet here and there - otherwise he called a pro. We've all used epoxxies for temporary repairs, but you have to go back and do it right. I admire a ho that tries things but that knows his limits. epoxy is a bandaid. Mad Dog

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Steamhead

Jason, I have to ask

why those steam pipes corroded in the first place?

I see corroded wet returns all the time, but it's not too common on steam pipes. You may have a problem with acid condensate, caused by inadequate venting. Dan covers this in "The Lost Art of Steam Heating", available on the Books and More page of this site.

Are there vents at the ends of your steam mains? If so, what make & model are they? What is the length and diameter of each main?

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kframe

It's more than a band-aid Mad Dog. Band-aid implies temporary. Using expoxy in this manner (also in the manner discussed in this article -- http://www.heatinghelp.com/newsletter.cfm?Id=20), it is more appropriately termed a semi-permanent to permanent solution.

I think you would agree that sometimes the patch approch, whether by expoxy, welding, brazing, etc., is not only viable, it's a sensible way of approaching the problem.

And given the amount of epoxy products sold to your industry for uses such as these, apparently not everyone believes that the only correct way is the most expensive and invasive way. Yes, sometimes it is. But not always.

As I've noted, I repaired a steam pipe coupling in my parent's house almost 23 year ago using A+B epoxy. The repair is still perfectly solid and holding steam. 22 heating seasons come and gone belies the theory that this was simply a band-aid approach toward fixing the problem.

So far it's giving every indication that it was a permanent solution to the leaking coupling.

Sorry, guys. I'm not in the industry, my livlihood doesn't depend on the work generated. As I told Mike in England a few days ago, my interest is in the fascination with the technology of the systems, and I'm going to naturally come at it with a homeowner's approach first and foremost based on what I know works in certain situations.

If that's an approach that no one likes or can live with, please let Dan know.

Mad Dog

Semi-permanent ok, but don't push

the permanent thing, dude. Properly connected black piping on the steam side can be leak free (see it all the time)for 80-100 years. Let me know in another 60, if that epoxy is still holding. The subtle dig about "livelihood not depending on" "make work-type" repairs is neither accurate nor fair in many of our cases. There is plenty of work out there for a craftsman - we don't need to "make work." Mad Dog

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Unknown

You certainly are entitled to an opinion.

I have mine and I'm sticking to it. I don't suggest repairing the piping, I suggest replacing the piping. Sorry if I offended you.

Noel

kframe

It wasn't intended to be a dig, Mad Dog. It was intended to be a statement of fact, nor was I implying that that's the case with anyone here.

If I offended you or anyone else, I apologize.

But I still believe the repair approach to be both viable and logical.

That steam systems can go 100 years or more sans leaks certainly is the case -- the system in my parents old house is now probably 110 to 115 years old, which means the coupling that I repaired was about 90 to 95 years old.

Given what I know about the current generation of epoxies, and the testing that's been done on them, though, I fully expect the pipes in the rest of the system to rot from the inside out before the epoxy fails. If that happens, then the time has come to replace not just a section of pipe, but the whole system.

Finally, from the independent testing that's been done it's pretty apparent that today's epoxies have essentially an unlimited life. Obviously epoxy compsitions differ, but it's not uncommon for them to laboratory test out in the multiple hundreds of years.

Mad Dog

ok accepted, but you meant what you meant

`I have no problem doing a safe repair. I've used epoxy and plenty of other stuff too... when you come up as a jobbing plumber, you gotta improvise. Many of us build our reps on giving people what they really need at the time, and a choice, repair or new. Tell you what though, we do not guarantee "band aid" repairs - you can't. What irks me is that your "step-by-step" do it yourself approach can mislead a lot of ho into a false sense of confidence - much like the home shows and do it yourself books. I've seen a lot of ho's do a lot of damage this way. I should shut up...w get a good deal of work that way... Mad Dog

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kframe

You don't guarantee what you call band-aid fixes? I'm shocked.

Wait a second...

Who ever said that you should? Not I.

Did I ever say that you should use an epoxy repair on a customer's pipes? No, I didn't.

What I did do, however, was something completely different... I advised the original poster that there are viable options for addressing the situation himself.

Did I tell him me MUST do that? No, I didn't.

I provided him with alternatives and options.

Don't you do that for your customers as a general matter of course?

With all due respect, your post sounds very much like an admonition for the home owner to never tackle any project more difficult than screwing in a light bulb.

Yes, homeowners can cause themselves problems, and no small amount of it is caused by the Joanne Lieblers and Dean what'shisnames of the world making it seem as if you can build The Breakers in 20 minutes with a pencil, 4 feet of string, and a warped 4x2. Lord knows that I've bitten off a couple of projects that were too much for me at that particular time.

But I've also seen, and had, significant problems caused by licensed, bonded, and insured "professionals" in any variety of trades.

I'm going to piss off some people, I know, with this assessment, but I'm going to make it. It's in no way meant to be a blanket condemnation of those who truly are professionals, though, so keep that in mind when you're cranking up to skin me...

When a homeowner screws up on a project, it's normally caused by lack of experience.

When a professional screws up on a project, though, it's normally caused by indolence or corruption.

Neither situation is great. Only in the second one, the homeowner's paid a lot more for the same results.

Finally, no one has answered my repeated question...

Have you taken Dan Holohan, one of your own, to task for explaining how to repair a leaking radiator with epoxy compounds?

What you call a band-aid repair?

Unknown

Lets make one thing clear

We have not condemned epoxy patches, each one of us. Not one has condemned your fix.

The man came to this site because it gives out sound advice with what we have to work with. You have jeapordized this feeling with some shaky advice on only THIS SINGLE CASE.

Nobody has chastized you, only the advice that you presented. You have made your point.

At some point, you will understand that your opinion isn't the same as the others.

This case involves piping that I have seen the inside of several times in other places, and the secure and safe and least expensive over a twenty year span, method of repairing and not needing to go back into the wallboard, is to replace it.

This is bigger than your ego, this is our collective creditability. You are free to advise, and so am I.

I suggest, due to the cost of refinishing the walls, that the leaking pipe be replaced, and the walls repaired with confidence.

I don't really care if the homeowner does it himself, or not. The whole pipe is suspect, from the internet view. And that's where he went to ask.

The only reason I responded was to protect the questioner from bad advice, which could damage the image of our site.

Noel

Mad Dog

You really are too much........DID YOU TAKE YOUR MEDICINE TODAY?

wHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM, SIR? Seems like you are looking for trouble. We are all professionals and genuine layfolk that want to learn. You want to tout the virtues of epoxy because you used it in your parent's house 22 years ago??????? I've seen and used epoxy more than you ever will, there are times to use it, and times to get a real man in there to put in some pipe hom,eowner or professional. If epoxy is sooooo great, why don't we all use it on every joint and fitting?????? It's a quick fix and sometimes you "get by" for many years with it, but , my friend, THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR REAL MEN PLYING THERE CRAFT!!!!!!!! Mad Dog

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Mad Dog

Oh yeah, I'll make sure to spank Dan at the next seminar.......

for suggesting an epoxyfix. HELLOO!!!!! I already told you I've used them before..NOBODY said "EPOXY IS EVIL"!!!! Relax. mad dog

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Dave Palmer_3

Jason..

email me if you would be interested in me looking had your problem. My office is in Providence,we do a lot of steam repairs and boiler replacements in the city and the Eastside.Good luck Dave Palmer ,Palmer Oil & Heating Inc.

Mad Dog

Maybe Kframe wants to handle this one Dave

Let's let him have at it hah? He's the pro Mad Dog

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kframe

What's my problem, Mad Dog?

Other than the fact that I'm being assailed apparently for having the temerity to suggest that the original poster could possibly address this situation on his own, not much.

I've tried very hard to keep my posts civil and informative.

I've not tried to misrepresent myself, what I do, my experience, or who I am.

I've tried to share my experience using expoxy, and to back it up with a tangible application found on this very site.

And I've tried to give a homeowner, a layman, a viable option for both finding and repairing the problem himself.

Yet, for that, I've been called unprofessional, had my motives called into question, essentially been accused of providing information that's unsafe, impugning the reputations of professionals, etc.

And now, apparently, both my manhood and my mental health are being called into question, as well.

We've spent quite a bit of time circling around this issue, and yet you've still not given a single concrete reason as to why epoxy isn't suitable for this application, other than it's apparently not a "real man plying his craft."

Would I have been accused of the same things were I to have suggested to the original poster that cutting out and fitting a new section of pipe himself isn't beyond the means of a layman?

So, please tell me. You've used more epoxy than I ever have, or ever will. Ok, I'll stipulate to that. If it's not suitable for this purpose, then what do you use it for?

And do please try to keep it civil. Hopefully you'll agree that civility and professionalism go hand in hand.

kframe

No one has condemned my suggested solution to the original poster's question?

I've been essentially accused of providing unsafe advice, unprofessional advice, impugning the reputations of professionals, etc.

This isn't a question of ego for me, Noel. I don't have a ego, professional or otherwise, in this field.

I've repeatedly asked why Mad Dog and others view an epoxy compound as an unsuitable option, even when it's a solution touted on this very website by one of your own for essentially the same type of application?

I'm truly sorry that I've started all of this adversity, but I'm having a really difficult time understanding both the undercurrent of hostility and the apparent adversion to possible alternate solutions, especially those that could be practiced by the layman.

kframe

I'm certain that Jason's needs will be well served by Dave, Mad Dog.

Well, in any event, I'm truly sorry that I've apparently sullied your sandbox with my layman's view of the world and my unprofessional take on homeowners' capabiltiies and reliance on apparently unmanly products.

Unknown

You missed the whole point

The pipe is NOT worth putting money into. Given it's age and length of time out of service, and the fact that it already leaks, the fact that it is concealed, and that a serviceman MUST stand behind his work, there is no way that opening a wall and patching this pipe would be sound advice, both safety wise and repeat cost wise.

In every pipe's life, there is a point where the thing is no longer repairable. Without looking at it, this pipe meets all of the criteria for not wasting a customers day off with the serviceman, or his money. If you can't afford to do it right the first time, how can you afford to do it twice? Let me ask you your own question. If the pipe is patched with epoxy, how long do you suggest the WHOLE PIPE, ALL THREE FLOORS, won't leak?

You haven't seen this pipe any more than I have. All your pretty words don't change the fact that the pipe is old, out of service, leaking, and concealed. I stand behind my reccommendation. And you're right, Dave will be the guy to decide AFTER he sees it.

Do you have any other questions?

Noel

Mad Dog

Right!!!! Even I have not \"condemned\" the use of epoxy

What we do not care for is your wholehearted endorsement of epoxies as if they were the answer to all one's heating woes. For the last time: EPOXIES HAVE THEIR PLACE...I HAVE USED THEM MANY TIMES FOR A QUICK CHEAP FIX....BUT THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE >>>A QUICK CHEAP FIX. There is NO substitute the real thing. ONCE AGAIN< I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH HOMEOWNER"S DOING SOME REPAIRS< BUT YOU COME OFF WITH THIS SUPREME CONFIDENCE BASED ON A FEW TIMES THAT YOU HAVE USED EPOXY.....YOU ARE OBSTINATELY REFUSING TO SEE AND RESPECT THE OPInIONS of MEN who have many, many years of combined experience in this but YOU KNOW BETTER THAN ALL OF US BECAUSE YOU"VE USED IT A COUPLE OF TIMES. Enough already Mad Dog

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Bryan_5

My 2cents on this fiasco

All this bickering is really a shame. This site is supposed to be a fun and educational experience. I dont know if you guys noticed but the original poster has not even replied one time to any of your suggestions after this started. Everyone has an opinion and thats great that is what the Wall is for. Now the way I see it the odds of Dan selling any books to Jason may have gone down drasticly. The odds of Jason even comming back may have gone down drasticly. The odds of Jason using Find a Contractor may have gone down drasticly. The odds of any casual observer that has seen this thread comming back may have gone down drasticly.

This is only my opinion. I love the Wall and visit everyday as many of you do. So lets keep the Wall alive and happy as it should be.
Bryan

Mad Dog

If one follows this post from the beginning, it is obvious

that I have been civil, and started out very polite. However, you, sir, are attempting to go toe-to-toe with seasoned, educated ,and erudite professionals. Homeowner or not, when someone is right - they are right...I will be the first to say it. You have yet to answer us: If epoxy is as great and durable as you say, then why isn't it the industry standard for joining pipe joints....heck - they shouldn't even make pipe repair clamps, dresser couplings, or victaulic roustabouts either. Using an epoxy is ok on a drain line, and you might get by with it on steam for a while, BUT IT IS NOT THE WAY TO GO? OK? PROFESSIONALS DON"T RELY ON QUICK FIXES LIKE THAT. What if that epoxy patch blows off some day and blasts your kid in the face with hot steam or water, will you still swear by epoxy? Worst cae scenario? YES, But by thinking that way, I have NEVER had a mishap. Mad Dog

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Jason

not the case.... and some replies to Steamhead

I wasn't not responding due to the direction of the thread. I got what I was interested in... a recommendation for a repair option and some contacts for a replace option.

I already own Lost Art and consider myself a pretty big steam nut for a non-industry homeowner. I couldn't put the book down after I bought it. I haven't responded to steamhead's questions about my mains just because I've been tied up. I used to visit the wall daily in the winter when there is more steam heat discussion.

From memory, I have two normal mains and a small counterflow section. I don't know the diameter of the mains because they're all encased in big plaster wraps. The dry returns were uninsulated and are about 2 or 2.5 in. in diameter. I do have vents at the end of the mains where the dry return changes to wet return (not at the last riser). They looked new when I bought the place but after finally checking them, I confirmed they weren't working. They were Vent-right #35. I replaced them with gorton #1 but think i probably undersized them but couldn't swallow the price of the #2 or the hoffman 75 at the time. I figured 2 working #1's had to be a whole lot better than non-working VR #35's. The radiators all needed new venting too. Some got TRVs in the overheating rooms. The system works nice and keeps the house warm. It has some issues like surging and water level drop but at least I understand how it works and can maintain it thanks to what I've learned here.

I was planning on taking some pictures of my epoxy repair in the basement to see if anyone could explain why a pipe might corrode in an area like this. It seemed pretty odd to me. But haven't gotten around to it with the roofers here and all.

Anyway.... I appreciate all the replies that I received publicly and privately and take them all into consideration when planning my repairs. I just didn't feel like arguing for or against epoxy.

Thanks again to everyone!

Mad Dog

Sorry Bryan, but this is the real world and sometimes you

Have to stand your ground when someone is endorsing a weak position. Yes, this is a great forum, but if you've been around long enough, you've seen that some debates get very heated. Passions run high. I will not back down when, my position is stronger. Last time: epoxy can work....for a while (so does pepper in a leaking car radiator, a wooden dowel in a water pipe, rubber and radiator clamps on a steam main, BUT HOW PROFESSIONAL ARE THOSE procedures? I'll bet my house on a proper repair by a homeowner over a quick fix by a contractor....this argument is about proven, time-tested methods versus the quick fix not homeowner versus contractor!. Your assertion that the original guy who posted is now so turned off of everone and everything is ridiculous. The man got an opportunity to see "The Devil and Daniel Webster".....swing it out at The Wall and make their respective cases...it is his choice, however, to decide who is the devil and who is Daniel Webster. Mad Dog

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Bryan_5

Jason,
I am glad to hear that. I am in the same boat as you. Once the steam bug bites its really hard to scratch that itch isnt it? I am sure you will get a response on the other issues from one of the pros
Bryan

Geno_2

epoxy

Gentlemen, let's consider this case closed. If you have to open a wall to make a repair replace the pipe, cover everything because it's just not worth opening the wall again. Nuff said!!
Geno

Unknown

Jason I am here in RI

Answer is to hook up with Dave Palmer here locally he is a good man.

I have watched this thread and as always on subjects diverse and interesting many opinons arise. Having said that it is always a good idea to listen to those who have many years of experience and have tried all the short cuts and found some to work others to be discarded. Then ask the inspectors what they want, they have to follow the rules.

Next point I do not know about the rest of the good old USA but here in RI according to local inspectors temporary fixes only to leaking pipes using what ever means within reason and safety are acceptable. Point to give customer heat. There are other solutions such as pipe clamps welded sleeves etc. We have used many temporary fixes on gas lines but eventually a remove and replace order goes out. Final solution remove and replace damaged piping as soon as possible. They told me that epoxy repairs are a short term solution only. So Jason seeing as you are in good old RI get it replaced by a liscensed professional it is the only way to go.

Good luck and if you need more info call me at 437-0557.

steve_6

Bickering , I think not!!

It's more of a passionate discussion. And it certainly brings to light what the proper and professional way to fix this problem as stated by experienced "professional" steam heating "experts". It also shows the way a non- tradesman who trys to cut corners would do it.
Educational....Very!!
As far as "find a contractor" goes I think it"s obvious who knows their sh-t.

Steamhead

\"Plaster Wrap\" on steam mains

is probably asbestos! You don't want to disturb this stuff.

But most of this stuff was about an inch thick. Measure the outside diameter of the wrap and subtract 2 inches. This will give the outside diameter of the pipe, which is usually 1/4-inch more than the inside diameter.

When considering main vents, the Gorton #1 and Hoffman #75 have the same capacity. However, the Gorton #2 has four times the capacity of either the G-1 or H-75. If more capacity is needed, the G-2 is the way to go.

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