hoffman #1

Tony_8

Can I use TRV's on some of the rads ? Does anyone make them angle style ? This whole house is finished including basement so I'm just going to give him the option of steam or HW if leaks are present it's extra. Considering that he didn't know he had steam for 19 years, I'm assuming the traps haven't been maintained either. That alone could make a huge difference in efficiency, right ? I'm about 2/3 through "The Lost Art". Would've finished by now, but am a man short. Almost ready to take on a trainee and give up on finding experienced help.

Tony_8

what ?

does it do???
Went on an estimate call today and saw one in the return piping. It appears to join the 2 return mains and says something about "balancer". Boiler is a 1910 coal converted to gas. Customer knew to use the blow-down (once a year HE said !) but didn't know it was a STEAM boiler ! He thought it was a gravity water system. It also appears to have an air vent on top of it ? and there are NO automatic vents on rads. He also said he drilled and tapped the rads shortly after moving in and installed "coin vents". Funny, they never bled water, he said ! BTW, he's lived there 19 YEARS !
Anyway, since I don't know much about steam, and am secure enough to admit it, I'll likely use an Ultra w/reset and constant circulation. Steam is a rarity here and I know I could be "the man" if I took it up in earnest, but my plate's pretty full most all the time now. I'm already the only one I'm aware of using modulating and/or condensing boilers within 30 miles.
I'll take some pics before tearing the old girl out, if I get the job.

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

Let me get this straight......

You want to take out the steam boiler and install a hot water boiler? Some of the things you've expained don't add up.

If you have a digital camera, take some pictures of the boiler and radiators and post them here so we can get an idea of what you have there. I wouldn't do anything to it until you know what you're working with.

By the way, the Hoffman 1A is an adjustable orifice radiator valve, i.e. it's meant to go on the radiator.

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Tony_8

it's not

a 1A. just a 1. It's a 2 pipe steam system with the returns above the water line of the boiler. The rads are fed at the top of one end and returned at the bottom of the opposite end with a trap. The #1 is above the boiler in the return. I've replaced 2 pipers w/ water before. Use constant circulation and P/S piping.

Steamhead

Tony, that's probably a Hoffman #1 Differential Loop

and it may have the slogan "The Watchman of the Water Line" on it. Yes, there is an air vent on the top and it should be pretty large. I think you have a Hoffman "Controlled Heat" Vapor system there- Vapor being a 2-pipe steam system that operates on 8 ounces or so of pressure.

You say "steam is a rarity" in your area- how do you know this? I'll bet there are many steam and Vapor systems in old houses around you. What part of the country are you in?

I would not even think of changing this system to hot water. Doing so would increase the operating pressure over 20 times, which could cause many leaks. The return lines may be too small to handle hot water. And trying to balance everything could turn into a nightmare, depending on how the supply piping is installed.

The radiators may not be big enough to handle the heating load on hot-water. Finally, steam and Vapor systems drain dry when they're off, except for wet returns and the boiler itself- so they can't freeze the way hot water can.

The traps on the radiators and the ends of the steam mains are probably Hoffman #8, 8A or similar. Replacement parts are available from Barnes & Jones, Tunstall and others.

Almost every American boiler maker sells good, efficient steam boilers. Just make sure you follow the installation and piping instructions- and don't use copper on steam pipes.

Vapor systems are works of true genius. They are some of the most efficient systems out there today. The Dead Men who designed and installed that system were proud of their work, and rightly so. Many, many Vapor systems survive today. Our job is to maintain them and make the Dead Men proud.

If you don't already have it, go to the Books and More page of this site and order "The Lost Art of Steam Heating". It covers the Differential Loop and many other things.

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Tony_8

that's it !

You've nailed it. Might go back tomorrow to take pics. I'm doing the heatloss tonight. Don't have time right now to discuss it. Boy Scout night.

Steamhead

Thought so!

I hope you keep that a Vapor system! If you have any questions, come to us and we'll do our best.

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Tony_8

well...

a few questions if you don't mind.

(A) How does fuel usage compare, steam to water, if rads and piping are ok for load ?
(B) Will the antique # 1 need to be replaced ? or just the vent? I'm assuming the vent does the job for the whole system ?
(C) Rad supply risers are 1" and 3/4", returns are 1/2". This seems adequate to me. Am I missing something in sizing for water that hasn't bit me before ?

I live in WNY, the southern part. Not much residential steam here. Very rural. NO CITIES Most of the old steamers have been converted or changed out. In nearly 21 years I've seen 5 or 6. Converted 2 by request, successfully. However, I don't want a leaker either.

Heat loss is 72k at design. Return mains are 1-1/4 if memory is correct.
May have shown too much confidence in water and lack of in steam to back up now. Will test the water tomorrow when I take pics.

Steamhead

Answers

A. Assuming the same boiler is used, and both systems are running properly (Pumping Away w/proper circulator size and good air scoop and insulated pipes on water, and good traps and vents properly sized and pipes properly pitched and insulated on Vapor) the fuel consumption should be about the same. The steam boiler will have a higher pickup factor built in but not enough to make a big difference. Don't forget the steam boiler will be heating up a lesser quantity of water. Oh yes, you can get reset controllers for steam and Vapor too.

B. Leave the Differential Loop right where it is. It will outlive both of us as it has no moving parts. If the vent needs changing, use a Gorton #2.

C. Those pipe sizes may or may not be adequate, depending on how much radiation is connected to them.

If you're in rural Western NY State, power failures may last a while. This is another point in favor of steam or Vapor since these systems won't freeze up like hot-water can. It's one of the main reasons we built a steam system in a farmhouse rehab a few years ago- see our Find a Contractor ad for details.

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[Deleted User]

please dont convert

dont convert that beauty to hot water...put in a new steam boiler, and install it as a millivolt system instead of 24 volt and the first time its 10 degrees outside, and the power goes out, the customer will think you are the main man cause he will still have heat.

Tony_8

hmmm

must be we lose power more than I know Really, it's not that bad. This guy lives in a Municipal Power System zone. Arrangement made when they built Niagara Power Authority and wired things up around here '25-'27. 2.6 cents a KWH for the 1st 1000 hours. They've been w/o power about 12 total hours since '86. Well, ok, maybe 14. We don't milk our cows by hand anymore either

I'm taking all this into consideration and have ordered The Lost Art and EDR so I can give the man his options knowledgeably. Thanks to Dan for sending them Priority Mail so I can get into them this wkend.

Steamhead

Yes and Yes (with pics)

There are several manufacturers that make angle TRVs. I have Honeywell/Braukmann units on my hot-water system (see pics, second one is a close-up- and yes, that rad needs repainting) but they will work for Vapor as well. And Tunstall can supply kits to convert the existing valves to TRVs. This is a great labor saver. Go to

www.tunstall-inc.com

for further. If you talk to Tom Tunstall, tell him I sent you. Best places for TRVs are bedrooms, kitchens and other areas isolated from the main living area where the thermostat is. I wouldn't put them in bathrooms since these rooms are rether moist.

Bad traps can cause many problems. On most Vapor systems, including Hoffman, there is not supposed to be any steam in the dry return. If there is, it will cause poor steam circulation and banging.

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Tony_8

We're steamin' !

Just talked to the HO and he's sticking with steam. Sizing the load tomorrow, getting trap #'s, etc. to price it out. Actually a little excited at the prospect of something different and kinda new to me. I like challenges. This isn't really a challenge, so to speak, but not the norm around here. I even have a market for the old solid fuel boiler, and they provide the manpower ! Amish furniture maker who bends wood w/ steam. I'll be taking pics tomorrow too. Thanks for keeping with me Steamhead.

P.S. I HATE PAINTING TOO

Steamhead

Excellent

Welcome to the Steam Club. Pretty soon you'll be installing your first system from scratch.........

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Unknown

Yes, welcome

Just say the word if you need anything.

Noel

Unknown

2 pipe vapor system

Hey Steam Head!!

You nailed that system pretty good. I mean that part about it being a vapor system.

I hope the heating contractor takes that advice.

The vapor systems were and are still the way to go when comes to heating a house,


Jake

Steamhead

> Hey Steam Head!!

>

> You nailed that system pretty

> good. I mean that part about it being a vapor

> system.

>

> I hope the heating contractor takes

> that advice.

>

> The vapor systems were and are

> still the way to go when comes to heating a

> house,

>

> Jake





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Steamhead

That was easy, Jake

there's only one thing I know of that looks like he described and has "Hoffman #1" on it.

I just discovered a whole slew of rowhouses that have Trane Vapor systems in them. Gonna have a great time there this winter!

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Mad Dog

c\"mon tony YOU GOTTA BE THE MAN!!! DON\"T CONVERT

we will walk you thru the whole thing....c'mon don't jump everything will be ok...........Seriuosly, restore this baby it won't take that much time or $$$$$, you will fall in love with the lost art and you will save this guy some bucks Mad Dog

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Mad Dog

Thank you Tony you ARE the MAN

and welcome to our steam preservation society. Mad Dog

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Tony_8

Baseray EDR

There's a 10' chunk in the DR on this job and I can't seem to find a load rating for it. The rest of the load is done. Got some so-so pics too. He's using the boiler as a shelf and the dry returns as clothes rods. Wait'll you see the duct taped main !

I'll post them later.

Steamhead

I have charts for Baseray

how tall is it, and does it have slots cut in the upper portion?

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Tony_8

aaaggghhh!!!

I didn't know there was more than one height. Looks "standard" to me. Probably 8" or 10" if my mind's eye is accurate. Yes, there are slots at top. I thought it would be in the EDR book but can't find it. Is it there and I'm missing it ?
Thanks

Tony_8

pics of the old girl

Homeowner seems happy I'm taking the time to get educated about his type of system. We discussed pros & cons and I explained how it was supposed to work. Showed him the traps between the mains and dry returns that he'd never noticed and explained what they did and how they operated. We looked up his rads in the EDR book and that kinda impressed him also. He's involved with heat transfer/recovery and pollution control (scrubbers) and has a pretty quick grasp of explanations. Makes it easier when they have a clue. The Lost Art and EDR definitely were the investment I needed to make for this job! Now for that BIG pipe threader... mine only goes to 2", and by hand at that.

Tony_8

found it

on Burnham's website. 3.4 sq. ft. / lineal ft. Looking like a 6 section. Funny, it's only a 5 finger house !!! :?)