Condensing boilers

Joel_3

my answer to that is if the tech doesn't have the part then he should have never sold you the boiler in the first place!!!!!!! Or you should have been smart enough not to hire him!!! At B.E.S. we stock critical parts like that for everything we sell if you don't how do you service your customers? Yes these boilers are excellent we have 4 vitodens sold at the moment. The guys are right though lots of people only careabout the price. stupid but it's true.

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Rock Solid Restoration_3

Condensing boilers

I've just been browsing the website of Monitor Products.

I linked there from the Energy Star website.

My question is basically this:

If wall mounted condensing boilers are so great, how come everybody doesn't use them?

They say that you can save at least 30% on heating costs by using them.

They say that conventional boilers take ten minutes to reach peak efficiency while the condensing boiler only takes 3 minutes.

They say that the harmful emissions are way less than those from conventional boilers.

It can burn natural gas or propane, which may be important to me because who knows when I'll get Keyspan to run the gas line for me.

It takes up very little room.

They say it is very quiet.

It looks very simple to vent.

Guys, is this a fairy tale? What are they not telling me?

I know you guys will set me straight.

Thanks in advance.

Craig

marc

usually its the $$$$$$$$$

most customers dont care about type of boiler. just the bottom line. we install the vitodens more and more every day. very nice boiler, it is fully modulating, and maintains its 94 % eff. during modulation. allthough more and more customers are chosing the vitoden over american cast iron boilers. we have a vitodens on the wall in office. also have cast iron boiler next to it. alot of customers ask about vitodens due to the clean looks.the bottom line is this type of boiler is leaps and bounds above any c/i boiler. you just have to convince customer to spend the extra $. marc

Wayco Wayne

Good question

The first answer is price. they are generally more expensive. Another reason is getting the efficiency out of them. If you have a heat emmiter ( such as baseboard heaters) that needs hot water say 180 degrees, condensing boilers don't deliver much more efficiency. If you have a heat emmiter that only needs say 120 degrees or less, ie. a radiant floor. You can get big savings because then a condensing boiler is very efficient. I ususally try to sell a condensing boiler first with outdoor reset so I can get good efficiency because of lower temps.

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hot_rod

I've got one

and it does all they said it would!

Also, Pete Caruso, an upstanding gentleman, has spent considerable time and energy (his) developing a market for the MZ and condensing tech in general. Well ahead of the lastest newcomers to the small condensing market.

I suspect you will see more and more U.S. boiler companies adding this product to their line up. It makes sense for todays low temperature hydronics. Try it, you may like it

hot rod

Joe_13

Don't forget they're complex

A lot of electronics, sensors, and all the parts are custom to each model and make. Error codes are nice for troubleshooting, but is the tech gonna have the replacement ignitor @ 3AM on the coldest night on his truck?

Rock Solid Restoration_3

Hey guys, thanks alot for the quick response.

Based on what you guys have told me, and based on the fact that my house will be 100% radiant, It sounds like a condensing boiler is the way to go for me. But then again I haven't priced them yet. If its not ridiculously more money I'll probably cough up the extra cash.

How about a Munchkin?

Thanks again.

Craig

Dan Foley

MZ

Like Hot Rod, I have had excellent results with the MZ boiler. I have installed over 20 of them. They are quiet, efficient and reliable. Yes, they are more expensive than a cast iron boiler. When you back out the cost of a mixing device and associated controls, the comparative cost is closer. -DF

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Troy_3

Munchkin

I love the munchkin. I have installed them in many different applications and it performs great. The company is very helpful also. So many times it is the company behind the equipment that makes a difference.

Wayco Wayne

I've installed 3 munchkins

They work well and have the advantage of modulating capacity so you can match your heat loss very closely, which means longer running times, slightly higher efficiencies. and not as much wear on parts. WW

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joe_14

condensing wall mount boilers


dan worte an article on what the industry has to say about these type boilers. the article was titled 15 years is long enough. in this article the experts are saying that after 10 to 15 years boiler should be replaced to keep its max. eff. in my opinion thats a hard sell to the customer. i fell the jury is still out on this. i guess time will tell.

thanks joe

Dave_13

Water Heater???

I'm starting to think more and more about using a HWH for my future radiant plans. I could buy 10 HWH for the price of one high end boiler. If it breaks- I know where to get another one! If my heat loss is in limits of the burner output, what are the downsides? Would I ever make my $$$ back if I bought a high end boiler and what if it breaks in 15 years and I have to buy another? Cha-ching $$$$$. Any thoughts?

Dave Yates (PAH)

condensing appliances

We too have installed the MZ and Munchkin boilers. Both have been very responsive to our questions by phone, but one in particular has been quite tardy in returning e-mail, which raises a red flag.

We're currently finishing an installation with Bradford White's 99% efficiency water heater for a large commercial application in a campground (18 showers, sinks, etc). A portion of the building gets winterized, so that meant a fairly oversized water heater would be coasting along during the winter months. (It's well water, so incoming water temps are stable.) As a result of having this extra capacity in the winter, we added a flat plate HX and a number of heating zones utilizing Burnham DuoRad units.

Condensing technology is here to stay. At ISH in Germany, there was very little else besides condensing boilers. Modulation of inputs is a no-brainer &, I believe, will become the standard issue.

I should add that it has been customers who are requesting pricing for these higher efficiency appliances and we have been providing a menu of boiler options with pricing for each. In roughly 50% of the bids, they are opting to spend the higher $$$$. I've never seen responses like this in previous years and upon checking their reasons, they have responded (as one) that last year's increase in fuel bills coupled with media coverage of projected natural gas shortages and spikes anticipated in this year's fuel bills has shattered their previous complacency regarding operation costs. Dan has written about this before.

The more expensive units are selling themselves, but as has been pointed out in an earlier post, you've got to know the system and tread carefully regarding projected efficiencies/savings.

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Mad Dog

I agree it is a hard sell for most folks............

but most folks don't go for radiant or snowmelt either. Just keep plugging away and the smart customers come around soon enough. On the using a hot water heater as the radiant source...I've done several and found that by the time all is said and done, you've piped and wired and controlled for a boiler, but you still only have a water heater. Usually for another 500-700 bucks you can get a nice small cast Iron boiler that;s gonna last a lot longer. Also, always remember to treat the water heater as a boiler: 30lb relif valve - not the 150lb that comes with the hwh, a spill switch on the flue, expansion tank - altyhough some guys don't use them on radiant they couint on all the flex of the tubing. I would n't do it thoiuh. MD

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Rock Solid Restoration_3

How 'bout a Vitodens?

Steve Ebels

Vitodens

Without doubt it's the top of the heap as far as condensing boilers. Nothing is even close when you look at the burner and heat exchanger that this boiler has. Viessmann is by far the most responsive company I have ever worked with as far as technical support goes also. It's the only company I know of that has a 24 hour help number you can call in an emergency, which to me is worth a ton.

Dale

savings

They'll save 30% compared to a steam system, 5% compared to a regular correctly sized boiler.

Steamhead

30% compared to......

a steam system that needs work, takes forever to heat, bangs etc., or one that runs properly? Big difference there, and I've never seen any answer to this.

Someone was marketing a condensing steam boiler recently but I can't remember who it was............

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Doug_9

We are homeowners with a 1 year old NTI Trinty modulating/condensing boiler. I certainly hope it lasts more than 15 years, but if it only makes it that long, it still will more than have paid for itself. Even with the spike in natural gas prices, our heating bill has been noticeably less with the new wall-hung than with the 12 year old (but prematurely aged) cast-iron oil-fired boiler we found when we moved here (and we have hot water radiators). Based on our experience, any condensing boiler: Trinity, MZ, Munchkin, Vitodens, would appear to be the way to go. When it comes to mechanicals right in your own home, I now can't imagine settling for less, and it's still a fraction of what most people pay for a car (not to mention what they're paying to update their kitchens every half-generation or so). Can you imagine relying on a 15 year old vehicle for your family's safety? With a boiler, the engine's right under you in your own house. If ordinary car salespeople can manage to sell safety and efficiency (i.e. progress), you wetheads can manage it, too. Keep trying and the public will eventually bite.