How To Replace Steam Wet Return?

Brian W.

No, I don't know everything that's involved here. I do know enough to use steel over copper. A few of the 10+ estimates we've gotten have been from people who want to mix copper into our system. They've been weeded out. Home Depot has steel pipe and they have a threading machine.

Is there a preference to using black steel pipe over galvanized steel pipe? I was going to go for the galvanized, but your comment got me thinking that the system has black pipe in it now.

I have gotten estimates for the pipe and they are in the $1500 range. The materials for this job look to be less than $300. The cost of the boiler installation alone is a budget-buster.

I am very interested in getting the book, but the project leader isn't interested (I'm just doing the work and don't control the money).

I guess I'm the ambitious type. I know I'll make some mistakes, so I'm not afraid of that. I'm trying to learn enough to not make any major blunders.

Thanks,
Brian

Brian W.

How Can I Replace My Leaking Wet Return?

I am a homeowner/handyman looking at having my 1930's steam boiler replaced this fall. In preparation, I have been researching how steam systems work over the past 6 months. I want to replace the leaking section of return, and at the same time re-route it to avoid the basement door. To save time and money I am considering doing the pipe work myself.


THE LEAK:
I've noticed that the water level drops, even if the system is off for the summer (I have a seperate hot water heater). The water level drops about 4" (to the bottom of the sight glass) after about 3-5 weeks.

I traced the wet return (the piping below boiler water level) and part of it goes into the concrete floor to miss the basement entrance that leads to the back yard.

Since nothing else is leaking (all the other basement pipes are exposed), and I understand concrete helps iron/steel pipes corrode, I figure that must be where the leak is.

Also, since the buried pipe is the lowest spot in the return, I figure that is where I'll find most of the dirt and muck that the system has been collecting for all these years. Basically, its a problem waiting to happen.

SYSTEM DESCRIPTION:
The boiler feeds steam into two runners, which are about equal length and are equal diameter pipe. The runners head off in opposite directions from the boiler, following the basement wall. They slope downwards as they move away from the boiler. At the end of each run, there is a main vent and an elbow which turns down to connect with the wet return.

So far, so good.

The single-pipe wet return, on the other hand, seems a little strange to me. It starts at the end of one runner, dips into the concrete floor to miss the basement door, then rises back up. Then it connects to the other runner with a tee and continues back to the boiler, connecting into the hartford loop.

This wet return _also_ slopes downward as it moves away from the boiler (I checked it with a level). From what I have read, this seems unusual, though maybe some of you have seen this before.

PROPOSED SOLUTION:
What I would like to do is to get rid of the pipe that runs under the concrete. Instead, I would like to run seperate wet returns back from each of the steam runners. In other words, the two seperate runners would each have a seperate wet return that would meet back at the boiler. For one side, I would only have to cap off the end of the return. For the other side, I would have to install new piping around the basement wall and connect it back into the the other return at the boiler.

This would save me the labor of using a jackhammer to bury another pipe, as well as eliminate the weakness of having this low spot in the system that can't be cleaned/flushed. Not having to heat that section of concrete floor would be another bonus.

QUESTIONS:
Can anyone tell me if this is a reasonable solution (will it work)? Or will this cause problems?

My related question is should the other (new) wet return that I plan on installing also slope away from the boiler? I'm betting that the answer here is 'yes', though I don't know why they would slope it away from the boiler to begin with.

If I replaced the return, I am tempted to install a ball valve at the end of each wet return to facilitate flushing the system out. The current setup has no provision for doing this except for the boiler drain, which is not the lowpoint of the system.

Thanks in advance,

Brian

Mark Hunt

Can you


post a picture?

Mark H

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Mad Dog

I don't know if you are up for this or even capable.....

do you realize what is involved in this project? It takes more expertise than you'd think. Do you have access to a pipe threading machine? Are you going to know to do it the better way (In black steel) rather than the quick easy way out (copper)? You are on the right track when you're talking about flush stations on the returns. Look! I am currently at the end of a 3 year total renovation of my house. As much as I wanted and intended to do the central air system, tile, and the carpentry, I realized that I would save more money, time, and aggravation getting a pro in to do it right. I admire your guts to attempt this, but you really should have the guy who's doing the boiler shoot ya a price on that too. If you are still that gung ho, get yourself a copy of the lost art of steam heating - available at this site - read it well,, and maybe then we can atleast "be on the same page" as they say. Best regards, Mad Dog

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Bryan_5

Brian,
If you do this on your own you said you are saving $1,200. How can you not spend $40 to buy the best book there is on the subject of steam heat. If you cant afford the $40 how can you afford to pay for the mistakes that you may make in undertaking this task. Just my 2 cents BTW...I am a homeowner myself.
Bryan

Brian W.

Not my money...

It doesn't make sense to me either. Unfortunately, the project manager (a.k.a. - the house owner and money source) doesn't see the benefits.

I like to get as much info on a project as possible before going through with it. Buying books and tools are a normal part of doing the job right. Unfortunately, I've made my case and have been turned down.

"There's always time to do a job right the second time."

Thanks,
Brian

Bryan_5

Brian,
I was under the impression this was your house. If it is, is the project manager your wife? Either way your comment was "There's always time to do a job right the second time." But is there the money? Seems like money is tight so why pay the $300 for the DIY job and then the $1,500 for the proffesional job. Either way its not my decision. Good luck to you.
Bryan

Mad Dog

Yeah Brian...you said

you are a homeowner/handyman looking to replace YOUR boiler this fall and were looking to tackle the wet return yourself.Whats up here B? Is your wife the check writer or are we missing something. Mad Dog

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Brian W.

Money Situation Clarification

Well, If you want the details...

My roommate (and longtime friend) is the owner of the house and the check writer behind the project. I referred to him as the 'project manager' as he has final say about what gets done. As the handyman, I am helping with many renovations.

While I don't actually own the house, I often call myself the 'owner'. I live here and care for the house as if it were mine. My friendship also gives me great insight into what the owner wants. We often hash through a project from many different angles before deciding on the correct approach.

Thanks,
Brian

Brian W.

Pictures

Here are some pictures. I've added some red arrows to help clarify things. The arrows show the direction of flow (steam moving away from the boiler through the top pipes, water returning to the boiler through the bottom pipes).

The boiler is located along the north wall of the basement.

In the picture east1.jpg, I'm standing next to the boiler. You can see the east steam pipe running away from the boiler, then turning and running along the west wall. When it meets the south wall, it turns down and goes below the concrete floor.

The picture south1.jpg shows where the wet return resurfaces. The red arrow shows what you might see if you could see through that wall to the left of the door. The dotted part is below the surface of the floor.

The picture west1.jpg shows the west wall where the west steam runner ends, turns downward, and tees into the wet return. The wet return continues in the direction of the arrow to the boiler from here.

I can post more if it would help.

Thanks,
Brian

Mad Dog

HMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!! OKAY

I get the picture now - enuff said. Ok, if you really are set on doing this yourself, you really have to invest in "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" AND read it because it will put us all on the same page, and it will prevent you from making a huge and costly, perhaps dangerous mistake. For instance, your terminology is not on the same page, i.e., "runners" instead of steam mains. If you want to turn the wrenches like the big boys you have to use our lingo. This is not a faucet changeout. Dan takes checks credit cards and small pets and cute kids as payment....c'mon...I spend 40 bucks at the bar for 2 hours. All kidding aside, do what i said and we will be glad to help you at that point. Mad Dog

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Unknown

Good question Brian

And well thought out post , I might add . Brings up a question , how low can return lines go below the boiler before they become a problem ?

I see in your pictures the returns drop down full sized - looks like 2 inch - and reduces to 1 1/4 . I would start from the reducing couplings with your new pipework . Running both of them back separately would be the best way to do it , and like you said , you should install a valve and drain on each return near the boiler to flush em out when needed . I would think the pitch of the return pipes wouldn't be an issue , as long as they are below the minimum water line . But a good idea would be to put a tee where the pipe is at the lowest , to drain out the sediment that might accumulate there also . It's a tough job to tackle by yourself , so lotsa luck on the install Brian .