I was a Moonlighter

DanHolohan

that it's better to sit back and patiently listen rather than prejudge people, Hector.

Just a gentle suggestion. Thanks.

Jackchips

I found John's

short note, from "Censorship" about how he started in business interesting and thought we could all share how we got started.

I was layed off from a fairly large Mechanical Contractor because I had left him once before and went back. He told me if I had not left the first time I would still have a job.

That was the push I needed to take my Moonlighting the next step and figured with the Unemployment checks for a few months it wouldn't be to bad. What a surprise was in store for me.

I made the mistake of telling the folks at the unemployment office that I wasn't looking for work as I had started my own business-checks stopped immediately. Years later I have come to realize I had taken a wrong turn by even trying to collect.

The worse was yet to come. I landed a new home installation for my first official contractor, did the rough and waited to get payed. He went bankrupt. To this day I don't know how I made it through 13 years after that start.

I left my own business because I didn't not want to hire and things were to good. It was before cell phones, answering machines and the other electronic devices that have made things "easier". I miss the customers, some of the work but not the hours.

I congratulate all those who started, survived and continue to provide the service to those of us who don't know how or just don't want to do it ourselves.

Heavy P

starting out

You probably wont get many true responses on how people got started out because some are afraid to admit that they started out moonlighting.

Bud_14

Moonlighting!

I was moon lighting for several years with different guys in the trade. Had a lot of fun and made a good chunk of change, I even would do side jobs with the boss...moneys green, even in his eyes i guess. I could see the shop I was working for slipping away..Huge financial problems hunted the shop and kept the last two years in a cloud. It wasn't hard to see, I worked for a few job shops in my career. I was to the point were I was just tired of the hopping from shop to shop, thinking I may even work for one that new business someday. So the last two years I managed to become licensed in both Milwaukee and Waukesha...purchase a new service van, buy some equipment and settle up with loans and stuff so I could start out on a clean slate...and I did. Finially laid off and was already to go! Couldn't have asked for it any better!
Any of you guys that are thinking of trying your hand at this business..get ready for the ride, cause its a roller coaster unlike one you've never been on...or maybe it's just me ;)If your doing it by yourself, its a 24 hour thought process...it takes over and you must be careful you don't let it get to you...something you don't learn about doing sidejobs...cause everythings fun at night with your buddies...

Bud

Bud_14

My side jobs turned into

helping the trade learn more about pattern development, thats what I do for fun...I get my kicks on html (and that ain't no radio station.)



Bud

ScottMP

Hector

I moonlighted !!

I worked for a company and decided that I wanted to run my own business. I Never took customers from them. I lived in a town next door and picked up customers word of mouth while I worked at night. I worked Saturdays and Sundays, allways took Friday nights off. I hooked up with a contractor who worked two towns over and did small jobs for him once I was on my own. My first van was a "love van" with captains seats and shag rugs everywhere . Told my wife I had never made it in a van and since I was ripping out the bed to put in shelves .....

I built my business and took the roller coaster ride. Thought I knew what I was doing. I did'nt know squat. SO..... after a brief tour of duty with the IRS and a close relationship with a law firm....

Its alot of work, you don't know what you don't know.

I now have a company that employes 10 people and I'll still work Saturday mornings, BUT I would'nt have it any other way. Untill I get close to retirement and then all the questions and problems can go to somebody else .

Scott

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DanHolohan

I've learned

that it's better to sit back and patiently listen rather than prejudge people, Hector. Thanks.

heatboy

I never moonlighted.........

when I was working for someone else. For 15 years I was loyal to the company I worked for. When we (Wendy & I) made the decision to start my own business. All of the funding for my start up came from the overtime of my job. It took well over a year to get everything I needed to start. When I returned from vacation, the last real vacation I have had, I explained the situation to my bosses. I told them that I had not talked about my business with any of their customers that I was starting my business, but that I could not promise from this point on that I would not saying anything. I offered them my continued services until they could replace me (nobody is irreplacable), but they opted to let me go that day. We parted on the best of terms and if I wanted, I could walk back in a get a job back. That was 12 years ago.

My point, if there is one, is it was quite a bit tougher doing my start up this way. I could have done it easier and quicker if I took on side work, but I needed a clear conscience going in.

If anyone that worked for me ever moonlighted, excluding his family members, he would/will be gone. To me, it's just a matter of personal principals and ethics.



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Steve Ebels

Confusion,apology and definitions

There are moonlighters and there are freelancers. Moonlighters: They are the people who see an opportunity to make a quick buck. They "think" they know enough about what they are doing without being a danger to themselves and their customers. They think if they charge $28 an hour they are making $28 an hour. They leave a trail of poorly performing systems and long term expense for their customers. They have just enough knowledge to be dangerous.

Freelancer: A person of varying apptitude, possessing a good to excellent set of skills who on his own time, expense and using his own equipment hires himself out after working his normal time at his/her present place of employment. Usually honest and forthright enough to let his boss know what's going on and does this with managements approval. Able to do the work in an up to date workmanlike fashion. This person realizes his worth and charges accordingly. Hack, Scab, and Butcher are words that are not associated with this persons work.

Sometimes anyone who works on his/her own time doing installations gets lumped into the former category. There is however a HUGE difference.

Hector, You have my humblest apologies if anything I said has offended you in any way. If any of my remarks on the moonlighting thread were taken as being disparaging toward you, this was truly not my intent. Stay on with us and learn about heating and being as good a person/businessman/pipefitter/hydronician as you can be.

John Mills_3

What scares me...

and keeps me from wanting to moonlight or freelance...

...one of our techs set a return duct on fire with his torch. Insurance payout was over $25,000. How many moonlighters or whatever you want to call them have any insurance? There goes the house...

Now someone who plays by the rules, has insurance, pays taxes (how many moonlighters do that), pulls permits (how many moonlighters are licensed) I have no problem with.

There are too many hacks, legit businesses and moonlighters, in this industry.

HeavyP

Insurance

You have to be crazy to be doing work, moonlighting or legit without insurance,permits etc. I always did, for I wouldnt want to loose my house.Hector

John R. Hall

Great title for a movie

"I Was A Teenage Moonlighter"

Too bad Michael Landon is dead.

Dave F.

Moonlighting

I was a commercial plumber/fitter who worked for a large commercial Mech contractor and I did 1or 2 houses or remodels a year for my snowmobile money.I always told my boss so as not to try to do anything on the sly. I thought this was perfectly harmless at the time.I have been in business now for over 7 years and I look back at that and think how stupid and irrisponible that was. Ididn't have insurance! Sure I was licensed and did everything up to code and also the people were friends or friends of friends,so even if something went wrong they would understand right! I never had any problems but after being in business I have seen just how unreasonable people can be nomatter how well you no them. My advice to anybody thinking of sidework is it is not worth the risk and most of the time the money you make. Dave

Mark Hunt

Liability


is one thing, and a homeowner should be aware that if they hire someone to do work "on the side" they will be hard pressed to get reimbursed should something get damaged or destroyed.

Now comp. is another thing all together.

When a homeowner hires a legitimate contractor to do work, they are protected from any comp. claims should the contractor get hurt on the job.

Now if that homeowner hires someone on the side, they are NOT protected and if the moonlighter gets hurt, they CAN be held liable for the comp.!

Risky business to say the least.

Mark H

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Jackchips

Thanks Dave and Scott.

These are the type of responses I was hoping for. I certainly did not want to open the conversation so Dan would have to step in again.

The initial question was "How did you get started" not why did you and why you shouldn't moonlight. I did it back in the late 60's and early 70's as a naive young guy just trying to improve life for my wife and two kids. A much different time. Reading some of these posts and the ones Dan took off you would think everyone that goes into this business was born with the intelligence to do everything right. Or at least do it the way some folks want you to do it.

That is another great thing about this Country--we can do it any way we want but I guess part of the freedom we enjoy is we still have to listen to terms like scab. Sad.

I am disappointed in some of the "attacks" but I guess it should have been expected by my title. I love this forum and continue to learn from it but I do wish some folks would be more civilized.

Steve Ebels

Interesting JM

What actually started on fire. Not a Steel duct? Dust snd crsp inside the duct?

Mark Hunt

What \"attacks\"?


I got my start when I left the company that I was employed at for 17 years.

In that time I never did "side work", not ever.

I inherited nothing. I bought nothing. I just went out on my own.

Now after 17 years I did have a name in the local industry, suppliers, reps, builders, etc.......

No, the phone was not ringing off the hook and at times this has gotten a bit scary. But I will never go back.

Now I have read several posts about guys "moonlighting" and the company they worked for going out of business. Hmmm. Coincidence? Not that their "moonlighting" was the sole cause, but it may have had an impact.

And for all you guys that now own your own shops, what is the company policy on "moonlighting"?

The big company I worked for would fire you on the spot if they caught you.

So let's say the "company" charges $725.00 for a gas water heater replacement. You send a guy out to look at an old WH and he tells the HO that he can do the job for $375.00. What do you do? Praise him for being an "entrepneur", say nothing because you know you pay him crap so he needs side jobs to live, or fire him for taking income away from the company?

Family and friends? Why wouldn't you be bragging about the company you work for? And why wouldn't a GOOD employer reward employees for referrals? You reward your customers don't you?

So tell me, WHY do people do "side jobs"? Is it just because they are under paid? So if an under paid worker does a side job, does he/she charge more, the same, or less for their time than the company does?

Are they Greedy?



I read a book by Zig Ziegler called "See you at the top".
In the book he said that if you weren't being paid what you were worth, there was always someone who would be willing to. You just had to look around. It is YOUR responsibilty to look after yourself.
So if "moonlighters" are doing the work for more money, then they must be underpaid right? Or are they living beyond their means? Either way it comes down to THEIR CHOICES.

Now, if a guy complains that he is underpaid and does side work, will he charge more for his time? 9 times out of ten he charges LESS!!

I could go on and on about this but I know that this is not what the post was about.

Hector assumed that everyone got a start doing side work or inherited the company. I did neither.

As I said, most of the folks posting said they did side jobs while working at a company that went under. How many other employees were doing the same?

How many of you business owners would allow your employees to do this?

Mark H



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ScottMP

Mark

This is NOT an easy question.

Let me throw out some thoughts for discussion.

If one of my employees tells a customer he can do the job for less at night they would be FIRED on the spot. You don't $#@% where you eat.

Do I as the employee have the right to tell my employee,They can not work at night ? You make this much money and that is all !

When our trades are able to charge enough money to provide employees a wage equal to other occupations, there will be NO MORE side work. We are NOT fairly compensated in this trade for our skills ! Do I sound like Frank ? My area is Crawling with plumbers/ heating techs. No matter how I try to buck the trend, I am market driven. I will continue to try and raise the bar, but its a uphill slow battle.

I know my guys work at night. I ALLOW them to use my tools when they need to. They tell me and ask. My JOB as an employer is to help better their lives. They Know not to work for our customers. Maybe I am naive.

Are my guys living beyond their means or are they living in a section of the country where the cost of living makes it difficult for a tradesman's family to own a house, a car, and save for college education.

I belive there is a big difference between someone working at night to make more money for his family and some one who steals customers from his employer and cheats the customer by not finishing a job or doing a poor installation. Hey that happens during the day time also.

MOST side work is done by people looking for a cheap price and would more than likly never call my office in the first place. They will look untill they find some one who will do the job for what They think is the right price. Buyer beware.

So hows that for another log on the fire .

Scott

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Heavy P

mark

Do you know that where I live the median priced house is over 500k? I cant talk for others but I did side work to establish a clientele to make it in my own business. My prices were not much less then what most companies were charging at the time. in 1988 I was getting over 70$/hr.Now I am flat rate. I never solicited one of my old bosses customers. If an employee solicited one of mine....Bingo they'd be fired. If they establish their own and I know about their side work,fine. They can not use my trucks, tools or material. I dont think you understand the term I'm using so let me lay it out for you.Sidework= A tradesman who is employed by a company and on his own time does work for his own customers, not his bosses. Maybe you understand now. Tell me how if you never did one side job, not even once, what work did you have the first few years in business? You surely couldnt have done alot of work. Work=money, money=house. No work,=no money=no motgage payment=no house

Paul Mitchell

Starting up

Just for general knowledge. I started out as a helper, worked with that company for a couple years and then got a job at an oil company that was a union shop. Worked there for seven years and did some "side jobs" which the company did not mind we did as long as it was not their customer. I started feeling my oats, so I left the company on a leave of absence for thirty days. This thirty days turned into eleven years on my own. Not so easy at first. I was doing pretty good but lacked the business knowledge I needed. After three years I was having financial problems and the work was slowing down. I was very dependant on a particular oil company that I was sub-contracting service for. So I did not put my business ahead of there customers and down I went. It was that make the oil customer happy and keep them oil that did me in. I decided to try and cut a deal with this oil company. They could purchase my company, give me a percentage of the service and all would be well. So they had technically purchased my company, myself and one tech and a couple trucks. This money I never saw and after another two years I was discusted in being on call, not getting the money I was due, and just working like an animal for them. I took one year off from the feild and worked in a supply house at the counter. Got a differant perspective, but soon realized dealing with contractors is almost as bad as dealing with the general public. So I had the oportunity to team up with someone and start into the business again. I had a break and I was ready. He had been in operation for several years and was looking to expand but wanted a partner not someone to baby sit. So we split the initial costs for some new equipment etc. So thank God and good work ethics. Also a little more business savy. We have been doing well. We have five trucks, I re-hired my tech from that oil company and we have a very good and weel motivated helper.(20 years old and he works his butt off..imagine that)Well thats the story and it is true.


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Mark Hunt

It was


not easy Hector, but that's the way it happened.

I have had customers look my name up in the phone book to find me.

I contacted the builders that I did work for after I left the other company. That company went down the tubes when the owner scammed gobs of money to pay for a big farm he purchased.

I had a lead generator in the Energy Star program so the phones did start ringing pretty quick, not off the hook by any stretch, but ringing.

So now I get a little ticked off when I lose a job to someone who is just doing it for play money. I am not playing.

Sorry if I said something to offend you before, I hope we can let it pass.

Mark H



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HeavyP

So if you

contacted your former bosses builders you stole his clients.Whats the difference anyway, I hope we can get back on track and next time I'll keep quiet when I dont agree with something because this thread has gone on way too long.

John Mills_3

The fire!

He touched his torch to the refrigerant lines on a coil sitting above an electric furnace. There was a hogs hair filter directly above the coil and a little finger of flame caught it and that filter went up like flash paper. Then caught the flex duct above the return plenum on fire. We got it out before the FD got there but there was a little fire damage around the flex and a bunch of smoke damage. The FD came by and tested the hogs hair I had at the shop. Nothing they could do would make it burn. They went to the hardware store and the brand they had was very flammable.

John Mills_3

The fire!

He touched his torch to the refrigerant lines on a coil sitting above an electric furnace. There was a hogs hair filter directly above the coil and a little finger of flame caught it and that filter went up like flash paper. Then caught the flex duct above the return plenum on fire. We got it out before the FD got there but there was a little fire damage around the flex and a bunch of smoke damage. The FD came by and tested the hogs hair I had at the shop. Nothing they could do would make it burn. They went to the hardware store and the brand they had was very flammable.

[Deleted User]

I agree with Mr Hunt...

I did some "side jobs" when I worked with my dad. He encouraged me to because they were outside of the normal pervue of our company. They were hot water heating jobs, and we didn't do hot water heat. I thank him, and my mentor (Wayne Anders) for the opportinuty. If it hadn't been for that, I could still be herding turds for a living...

That said, we pay our emplyees VERY well. To the point that they shouldn't have to go out and moon light, or side job or wahtever term you want to use. If it's family, it's OKay. If it's your BEST friend, it's acceptable, but we need to know about it.

If it's a friends friend, the buck stops there. We are in business to make money so we can continue to take care of our employees. If they take that away from us, they're taking money away from themselves.

Hector, I think you are a little oversensitive about the issue. We all have done some sort of moonlighting or whatever at one point in time. It's a question of biting the hand that feeds you.

ME

HeavyP

I think you're a tyrant?

Who are you to tell someone what they can do in their own free time? If I work for you and you pay me very well, that must mean that I am very good correct. So who do you think you are to try and limit how much money I could make. If I worked for you I would tell you where you could go.

John Ruhnke1

Union and non union together..............

Mark,

The company I worked for went out of business for several reasons. One big reason is they had two shops, one union and one non union. They had about 50 emploees with half for each shop. The son owned the non union company and the father owned the union company. Both shops were ran out of the same office. Material and office staff went back and forth. Though a union plumber NEVER worked with a non union plumber. The union guys got paid a minumum of $24.00 per hour back then in 1988. I finished my apprenticeship in 1988 and expected a big raise once I got my journeyman license. Once I passed the test they paid me $14.00 per hour, I was outraged. Come to find out, I asked my forman, how much he made an hour. Some Forman, he ran three apprentices. Half unregistered of course, because the mechanic to apprentice ratio was way off. He made $15.00 an hour. I was 23 at the time and my mechanic forman was 25. They made a fortune off of us. I was young and didn't know any better. The boss was friends of my parents and that was how I got the job.

Needless to say, I tried to get into the union along with a bunch of others. The union looked into what was going on and tried to organize the non union shop. It was all one big huge mess! Eventually we had an election, won the election to go union and got a pink slip the following day. What a huge mess all of that was. That is how I got laid off! If you must know. The boss's laid of the ENTIRE union shop and all of the nonunion guys who voted for the union. It went to court and we won. I got paid in full by my previous boss's while I was out of work. I went to work for two union shops after that and got laid off twice because I had no seniority. For about 2 years I only worked a couple of months here and there, but I moon lighted all the time. With the court money, unemployement and moonlighting money I made out very well. 1988-1990 were very tough times for union shops. They were laying off workers left and right. By the time I got laid off the third time, I vowed to NEVER EVER work for anyone else but myself again. I was sick of my old company, sick of the union, and sick of everything else except for moonlighting. My moonlighting clients were very friendly people who really apreciated me. They always kept me busy and for the most part were honest with me. They didn't play games with my head like the union and my past boss's. I don't know if I was right or wrong to moon light, but I am glad I did.

What caused that company to go under? They played stupid little games with everyone. They started a non union shop by bending the rules and were stupid enough to underpay them. What in the world did they think was going to happen? DA!@! They practically forced the situation to happen and it exploded in there faces.

John Ruhnke
JR@ComfortableHeat.com

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DanHolohan

Oh well.

I thought we had come to an understanding about mutual respect and name-calling, Hector.

Take a time-out.

Earthfire

Disloyal Employees

The company pays the wages. The company provides the training( in house or union apprenticship). The disloyal moonlighting employee is not available for work on saturday or sunday ( at overtime pay) or rushes a job to get out at quitting time( maybe causing callback) and provides the company customer with substandard service, because he is trying to get to his moonlighting job. Also wastes company time at the supply house picking up material for his side jobs ( That is theft in my book). A LOYAL employee is one that brings new business into the company when people approach him about doing work ( friends ,family acquaintances), and is compensated for the sales work.If your employer does not appreciate that find a new employer. A company cannot survive without qualified loyal employees. If you feel the need to moonlight, do so in a different line of work, do landscaping , install decks, do masonary, take a part-time job with another contractor in the next town or on the other side of the city. By the way if you are "moonlighting" you are legally selfemployed, and if you are collecting unemployment compensation, you are commiting unemployment fraud which in most states is a felony. Just my humble thoughts on "side work". By the way ANY EMPLOYEE THAT COMPETES WITH MY COMPANY WILL BE TERMINATED IMMEDIATELY,and will be REPORTED TO THE IRS and STATE for TAX EVASION.

John Ruhnke1

Note, Now I anylize myself hmmm............

I guess that I had a differant view point. I asked my boss's ahead of time to moonlight. They said yes. If they said no, maybe I wouldn't of moonlighted.

Anyway moon lighting is not the real point of my story. I lost respect for many plumbing shops, unions and lawyers back then and I lost respect for the "system". To this day I still feel like I can do better then an engineer. Why? because they went to college. College is part of the "system". The system is all screwed up. That is what I believe, because of my past experiences.

I can feel the respect that Mark Hunt had for his old boss. I didn't have that same respect. I had a bad experience with plumbing companies, unions and lawyers. It wasn't until I joined Contractors 2000 that my opinions started to change. Those shops paid there guys very well. They are run top notch. I gained a little respect back into the "system". I wish I had hooked up with a better quality shop when I was younger. Maybe I would not have become such a rebel of society like I am today. I just don't trust the system.

Although, being a rebel is a good thing. Because I don't trust the "system" I can think outside the box. Actually strange as things are, now that I think about it, I like being kinda like a rebel of the "system". I'm glad things went like they have. It has made me stronger and smarter.

JR

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Mark Hunt

I contacted


them after he went under.

Mark H

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hydronicsmike

Who are YOU?

Hector,

No matter what, this is a place where you can share your opinion and expertise. Calling someone you don't even know a 'tyrant' is not very professional. Nor is it appreciated.

I have met ME and can tell you that he is one of the best there is. Respect is something one has to earn. He sure did.

I don't know if you would be working for him very long.

Mike

murph'_3

this boy is.......

playing both sides of the coin trying to get everyone riled up !! Anominity for the right reasons is one thing ,but to stir up the bull with an opinion floating both ways (to what disagreement is relevent)hmmmm..... now how about that flat-rate vs.T&M debate ??


Murph' (SOS)

DanHolohan

He's

done, Murph'.

Coming to Denver? ;-)

Wayco Wayne

Interesting line

I started out moonlighting when my first kid was born. I freaked out that I was responsible for another life. There was no conflict because I worked for a commercial HVAC company starting up Office building A/C systems, and the side work was residential. I loved helping people out and it grew until I made the jump. Scariest day of my life. Been at it for 17 years and enjoy helping people still. Now my side job is teaching night school at the local college for my ACCA chapter.

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Mad Dog

You're out of line Hector!

Those are two superior men you are besmirching. They are heating intellectuals and damn good guys too! Mad Dog

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Bud_9

You build your own sucurities in life...

That was one of my most important lessons growing up, and growing up in the trade.

Bud

Mark Hunt

PERFECT EARTHFIRE!


That says it all.

Mark H

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