Harpsichord

Terry_4

so others can pick apart your work? ; ). I just know you're sitting there thinking "now that shut off valve is laying right there in front of me and I forgot to install it on the gas line before it enters the building". It must have been a Monday. ☺

Terry

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

Just finishing up

the rough tubing installation for a commercial building here in Berkeley. The owner builds harpsichords and needs gentle heat because of the wood that he stocks. He also had 20' ceilings in his workshop.

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Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

The floor system

is a bit complicated and hard to install. The structural slab has been poured; sleepers have been installed for the plywood floor and insulation has been put down between the sleepers. We found some plastic clips for the PEX and installed them every 3' and used Tapcons to screw the clips to the concrete floor.

The inspector is coming out tomorrow to check our pressure test and the contractor will pour concrete between the sleepers on Friday.


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Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

After lots of debating

back and forth between the owners, architect, general contractor and myself, we decided on using a Rinnai water heater to heat the floor and some Runtal radiators upstairs.

The decision for the water heater was based on cost (it's a lot cheaper than a boiler) and finding a suitable location (10,000 [] of building and no room for a boiler).

It's a 199,000 BTU boiler, but for some reason, you can only get 60,000 BTU's out of it for hydronic heating. Haven't figured out why yet. The heating load for the spaces we are in is 65,000 BTU so we are maxing out the Rinnai.

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J.C.A._3

Alan,

Don't you just love designers who think heat and hot water appear magically? May be something they teach them in design school ? Imagine mechanicals as the last thought and start from there. As the Maliozzi Bros.,(Click and Clack) say BO-OO-OOOOGUS ! Makes ME want to scream . Chris

Terry_4

Alan, don't you just love posting pictures on the wall...

> back and forth between the owners, architect,

> general contractor and myself, we decided on

> using a Rinnai water heater to heat the floor and

> some Runtal radiators upstairs.

>

> The decision

> for the water heater was based on cost (it's a

> lot cheaper than a boiler) and finding a suitable

> location (10,000 [] of building and no room for a

> boiler).

>

> It's a 199,000 BTU boiler, but for

> some reason, you can only get 60,000 BTU's out of

> it for hydronic heating. Haven't figured out why

> yet. The heating load for the spaces we are in is

> 65,000 BTU so we are maxing out the Rinnai.

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 53&Step=30"_To Learn More About This Contractor,

> Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A

> Contractor"_/A_

ScottMP

Terry

If I know Alan, its going right under the unit behind the mans head.

Alan what do you think of the Rianni outdoor unit ? I am just about to install my first. This will be domestic for a pool house ( read : small mansion ).

Years ago I worked for a week in a company that builds organs. They built everything in the shop. VERY interesting. Except for the two guys who sat in soundproof rooms all day tuning the pipes. Boop,boop ... peep, peep....
they where odd dudes.

Scott

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Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

Brilliant

deduction, Scott. I was just embarrassed to show the connections because of all the couplings on the gas line; seems as though my guys forgot to bring their threader. The Rinnai is a wonder to install. It's 9" thick so you need a location that will accept it. This is the commercial unit that lets you go up to 180°. You buy the enclosure separately and just make sure you conform to min. clearances to openings. The metal enclosure doesn't have any knock-outs so you'll need a hole saw or chassis punch.

Thanks, Terry. I savor constructive criticism because I do things wrong all the time; and my wife is always there to remind of that.

BTW, I had to go to the dictionary twice (embarrassed and savor); my spelling has really gone downhill.

All the best,

Alan

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chuck shaw

Alan

Just curious. Are you using the galvinized(SP? too lazy to look in Websters)pipe for gas? We are not allowed to use it here in Massachusetts. I did work for someone once, who wanted me to install it, and then spray paint it black.

Chuck

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Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

Galvanized

is required on exposed piping here; hot dipped.

I've heard of jurisdictions not allowing galvanized because they were worried that galvanized flakes would come of the inside of the pipe and clog the gas regulator.

A good reason to install drip legs.

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Dale

We use it everyday

Galvanized is ok if the gas is clean, as it is in here in Wisconsin, a long way from the gas fields and alot of expensive compressors and transmission line to go through. We found it's the least expensive way to deal with the code requirement that the pipe going through the wall be coated. We have since seen how well it holds up under decks or in any other wet area. I actually got us using it after seeing Atlanta Gas Ligtht using it on the coast of Georgia where the salt spray was hard on black Iron. I like it on the piping from the meter through the wall as you never have to paint it.

Unknown

In NH, the gas co forbid it

On Long Island NY, the gas company insists on it outside.

Go figure.

Noel

Terry_4

Now.... don't think I'm nit-picking..

(actually, I guess that's exactly what I'm doing), but here in our area (we're under 2000 UPC at present), our gas supplier guys (who know only EXACTLY what it says in the book) would quote sec 1211.12 "...Such shutoff valve shall be located outside the building it supplies and shall be readily accessible at all times..."

By definition "readily accessible" means direct access without the neccessity of removing any panel, door, or similar obstruction." So...thats what we would have to do here.

Those Rinnai units are great. I first heard about them here on the wall, and since we have installed 8 or 10 of them. One guy built four summer use rental cabins for fishermen, and we used the outdoor units on that. He was happy to not have to find space for water heaters inside. He'll just drain them every fall. For more mild climates you could probably rely on the built in freeze protection, but I'm skeptical about trying that here where we see -40F.

Terry

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

You left out

the first part:

"Gas piping supplying more than one (1) building on any one (1) premises shall be equipped with separate shutoff valves to each building..."

This job is only one building, but I suppose it wouldn't have been a bad idea to install a valve there.

Alan

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Rob Garcha

Rinnai water heater

Allan, How are you handling the high pressure drop across the heat exchanger. My understanding (limited as that may be) is that the unit has a built in modulating valve that restricts flow in order to instantly heat the water. I would be interested to know what your piping strategy / pumping strategy is.
Rob

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

Rinnai

has a brochure called "Standard Circulator Applications" and in it is a chapter called "Hydronic Heating Pump Selection" where they recommend primary/secondary piping with the primary pump capable of 6 gpm/30' head; that's a Taco 0013 (whew!).

They go on to say that the formula for determining BTU output is GPM x Delta T x 500 = BTU. In the past, Rinnai reps. have come on The Wall to say that 6 gpm is the max. you can get out of the Rinnai for space heating, but theoretically you should be able to size the pump up to the maximum output of the water heater. So, since the Rinnai has an input of 199 KBTU, it's output (if 80% efficient) is about 160 KBTU. If you could find out the performance data and size the pump to flow 16 gpm (at 20° Delta T) at whatever head, you should be able to utilize the full output of the little devil.

But no, they don't seem to want you to go over 6 gpm and perhaps it's because it's just too much pressure on the water heater itself.

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Don_4

gas piping

Just another example of what the US allows that doesn't come close in Canada. Galvanized pipe is not allowed anywhere in Canada and all outdoor piping must be painted.In Manitoba in particular we have to allow for ground shift on underground piping with a "swing" between the pipe exiting the ground and entering the building. Our codes also demand an accessible shut off at each end of the underground pipe.