Licenses and Inspections.........hb

Mark J Strawcutter

I think permitting is reasonable, and would even go along with requiring the seller of certain equipment (like a water heater) to submit a list of unit sold/to whom to the local permitting authority.

I think work should be inspected by a *competent* inspector.

I think licensing is reasonable, and that work performed by an appropriately licensed contractor would not require inspection. However, licensed contractors should be subject to random inspections of their work with some limit on the number of such inspections per year.

Charge for inspections/re-inspections - except random spot inspections of licensed contractors. Those should be covered by licensing fee or high enough inspection fees to non-licensees to cover it.

As a licensed contractor your life is simplified by not having to arrange for inspections. The licensing/random inspections protect the public from shoddy licensees.

As a homeowner if I think I can do work up to code, I can. I pay for the inspection. If I was wrong, I pay for the reinspections. The inspections protect the public from shoddy DIY'ers.

Just some thoughts.

Mark

heatboy

Not for me.

In PAH’s DIY post below, there is more than one reference to our trade being licensed and subject to inspections. It begs the question of who is going to pay for the bureaucratic nightmare this would cause? Naturally, we would and ultimately, our clients. Those of us that do plumbing are already subject to being licensed and having inspections. Let me ask you, how’s that working out? Ever see a licensed professional do crappy, incorrect work?

We all **** about the DIYer’s doing things they shouldn’t, but we have no one to blame except ourselves. We have lowered the standards to the point that the public holds no value in what we do. Making everyone get some sort of license is not going to elevate the construction trades to the status we would all like to see. Professionalism and an ethical approach to doing business is the best way out of the mess we have created. Having my work scrutinized and inspected by people who know less than I do about what it is I do, is certainly not going to help. We all have an obligation to change how the public perceives us one client at a time. That’s about all we can do.

hb


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ScottMP

Sorry Jeff

I disagree.

Inspections help keep our plumbing work to the standards that are set out in the codes. Your right very few plumbers do crappy work BUT, when they do or try and slip it by they are usually caught and made to correct the situation. I belive that the system of inspections and permits helps weed out those that cannot continue in business with returns and refused inspections. Hey I am not naive, I know many guys don't do inpections or pull permits, but those guys get caught eventually.

I have seen some really poorly done heating wrok with NO ONE to look at the work and set at least a minimum standard. With no one to check this work these guys keep right on going.

I agree that with some of the work out there it will be difficult to find inspectors who will be able to keep up. You work comes to mind. Sometimes I have to look three times to follow you, But whats the alternative ? Ask guys to please do better work. HA.

Something must be done to set at least a standard to follow.

Hoping for a little bit of sunshine here in NE

Scott

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hot_rod

I agree hb

Even if every small town had requirements or codes, who will enforce them? Who will pick up the tab for well trained inspectors and a legal staff to chase down and prosecute offenders. Hey we got wars to fight and terrorists to chase that's where billions of tax dollars need to go

Keep in mind it's not just the plumbing& heating trades that suffer from hacks. Would licensing the contractor help? Maybe a bit, but you still have to train ther entire workforce from apprentice through master to up the same standards. Not to mention handymen. That sector grows stronger by the day as a pull through from the boxes having everything under the sun for sale. Like boilers and furnaces:)

From my prospective it will always be a price driven occurance. For the most part the pricier HVAC shops spend the time to train, inspect and learn the new equipment and installation requirements. They keep abreast of code changes and prospective problems, new to these times.

I've given up loosing sleep over the hacks, and box sales. My area is full of them, some of the worse are the "good old boy" master that have always done it this way! I present myself, and the other subs I align with, to the customer as being professional and trained. At some poiunt the general public needs to "assume responsibility for themselves and their actions" this includes shopping for contractors. It used to be this way. At least until the legal system saw dollars to be made. Coffee too hot, tobacco killing me, too much fat in my burgers! Must be the manufactures fault, heck they have tons of stock holders dollars to give away to "victims" Yeah right!

Getting the box stores to train the plumbing, electrical, and HVAC sales staff sounds like a joke to me. And even if they had a well trained staff would they refuse sales to incompentant purchasers? Talk about a legal can of worms

The boxes work on numbers, big numbers! Policing our industry, via box store sales, will pretty much get lip service, I feel.

Choose you battles! I'm not ready to pound more of my hard earned dollars down that rat hole, to bring the 100's of thousands of box store sales staff and buyers up to my way of thinking. I'll shop the professional wholesalers instead, to support my industry.

Buyers beware, wish there were an easy answer, I'm all ears.

There, I feel better already:)

hot rod

John T_2

I have to agree also

> In PAH’s DIY post below, there is more than one

> reference to our trade being licensed and subject

> to inspections. It begs the question of who is

> going to pay for the bureaucratic nightmare this

> would cause? Naturally, we would and

> ultimately, our clients. Those of us that do

> plumbing are already subject to being licensed

> and having inspections. Let me ask you, how’s

> that working out? Ever see a licensed

> professional do crappy, incorrect work?

>

> We all

> **** about the DIYer’s doing things they

> shouldn’t, but we have no one to blame except

> ourselves. We have lowered the standards to the

> point that the public holds no value in what we

> do. Making everyone get some sort of license is

> not going to elevate the construction trades to

> the status we would all like to see.

> Professionalism and an ethical approach to doing

> business is the best way out of the mess we have

> created. Having my work scrutinized and

> inspected by people who know less than I do about

> what it is I do, is certainly not going to help.

> We all have an obligation to change how the

> public perceives us one client at a time. That’s

> about all we can do.

>

> hb

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 103&Step=30"_To Learn More About This Contractor,

> Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A

> Contractor"_/A_



John Taylor

Custom Climate Systems, Inc.
Whitmore Lake, Michigan

hot_rod

A double edged sword - with one edge very dull!

I'm not sure I agree completely with our having dumbed down this situation (half & half).

I agree that no more additional licensing or permitting should be included until those inspecting can pass muster for that trade. But it would be a hoot to have them inspect a complicated radiant installation(G).

Here's an interesting case. I'm on a Township plumbing board & we've got to decide what to do with a licensed plumber who did the following:

*Let his license expire & the inspector allowed him to obtain a renewal by paying extra & not being re-tested. Most inspectors will allow a lapse in memory & with an extra shot of $$$, a renewed license.

*Does a job sans permit. Gets caught. Says tough beans, he don't need no steenkin permit, ain't gonna get no steenkin permit - so there! Says the owner instructed him to work without getting the permit in order to avoid the hassles of dealing with the Twp. Plumber in question says that absolves him of having to comply with Twp law. (I'm just glad the owner didn't tell him to kill anyone!)

So, it comes to where I'm asked for a recommended punishment. My question? How many unlicensed contractors and homeowners have you "busted" in the past? You've got two of the big box stores in your township. Have you bothered to pursue any conversation with them regarding the permits required for many of the products they sell? If not & you take away this guys license (not that it would matter since he already said he isn't getting permits or inspections) and he hires a sharp atty & you can't produce any records (public records he has to realease BTW) showing you're not chasing anyone but licensed plumbers - you're going to have a very difficult and potentially expensive day in court. It's called profiling & that's made lots of headlines where racial profiling has been proven. You can't isolate just one segment of the population and continually pursue them while turning a blind eye to others blatantly breaking the laws, which when it comes to plumbing would be all too easy to catch. But they're not licensed & therefore more difficult to pursue with fines much less prosecute or punish - they've got no license to lose. In many cases, they's also be residents of the Twp, which scares the will-to-enforce out of many who hold political offices. As long as there's no enforcement of plumbing codes with respect to DIY & unlicensed contractor sales from big box stores and only we licensed contractors are made to tow the line, the trade gets no respect. (Would Doctors get respect if anyone who felt like it could operate or write presctriptions with authorities turning a blind eye? Or practice law with passing the Bar?) As long as the plumbing inspectors need no formal training and are simply appointed because Uncle Louie sits on the Twp board of supervisers, I have a hard time respecting their "position". I had to serve a six year apprenticeship before I could take my Master Plumber's test. Three years of night school (two nights a week) was part of that too. Looking back on that achievement now, I know all too well how little I really knew about PHVAC and how far I've come since then & that I will never know it all - but I will learn something new each day until I change positions with the lawn surface. Continual learning has taught me that I know almost nothing!

I've seen plenty of botched HO stuff. Contractors too & next week I'm giving a quote to correct a really botched up HVAC mess installed by a licensed contractor - less than a year old too. Both of those I can grudgingly accept (doesn't mean I like either situation). But for the big box to be misleading the unsuspecting public, when they have a 25% share of water heater sales, is not just frightening, it shows damned poor training of employees on their part and a lack of sound judgment.

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heatboy

A license is just........

something that can be taken by the powers that be for virtually any reason. It does not mean my work is of a higher quality because of it. My work is what it is because of my own principles, period. PAH, there is no one in this field I respect more than you and I admire all of your efforts in trying to make it better. The only "license" I have is for refrigerant and that is a complete farce, as you well know. A heating license would be akin to that. Give an inspector a hard time and you risk making your life miserable with little recourse even though, you are correct. No thanks.

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John T_2

I'd have to agree

> In PAH’s DIY post below, there is more than one

> reference to our trade being licensed and subject

> to inspections. It begs the question of who is

> going to pay for the bureaucratic nightmare this

> would cause? Naturally, we would and

> ultimately, our clients. Those of us that do

> plumbing are already subject to being licensed

> and having inspections. Let me ask you, how’s

> that working out? Ever see a licensed

> professional do crappy, incorrect work?

>

> We all

> **** about the DIYer’s doing things they

> shouldn’t, but we have no one to blame except

> ourselves. We have lowered the standards to the

> point that the public holds no value in what we

> do. Making everyone get some sort of license is

> not going to elevate the construction trades to

> the status we would all like to see.

> Professionalism and an ethical approach to doing

> business is the best way out of the mess we have

> created. Having my work scrutinized and

> inspected by people who know less than I do about

> what it is I do, is certainly not going to help.

> We all have an obligation to change how the

> public perceives us one client at a time. That’s

> about all we can do.

>

> hb

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 103&Step=30"_To Learn More About This Contractor,

> Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A

> Contractor"_/A_



John Taylor

Custom Climate Systems, Inc.
Whitmore Lake, Michigan

hot_rod

Yup

How well I know that to be true. My article regarding "Permit Regs Hinder Us" brought my firm a bunch of grief - some of it continues to this day. But it was and is the truth and the manner in which we're forced to obtain permits is indicative of how little we're thought of as being businesses whose time is a valuable commodity.

Our universal license for refrigerants carries with it a responsibility to perform work within specific guidelines. My Master Plumber's license carries with it the obligation to perform my work within safe guidelines that were designed to protect the health of the nation. I've lost track of the many certifications obtained over the years for gas piping, duct sizing, new refrigerants, gas venting, UV systems, water softening equipment, well water pump systems, radiant design/installation/instruction, hydrolizing my pectides - controlling Red Banded Leaf Rollers - licensed pesticide and herbacide applicator (viticulture associates degree from Penn state) from my days managing a farm with acres of vinefera - it was a contest between plumbing and being a vintner - plumbing won my heart & soul but I did love working the fields, and who knows what else!

Aretha! R e s p e c t, find out........

Coming from you, that's praise beyond anything expected. I am in constant awe of yours and others work, ethics and attitude I see on a daily basis on this board, in person and at conventions. The internet has provided forums where the bar is continually raised beyond anything possible before its conception. It has its dark side too, but so does life. You get out of it what you put in or - as is the case here - a ten fold return on investment. This board is not just a learning place, it is a microcosim of life itself and the strong ethics and character the blue collar side of life contains. We took another shot to the ribs in Newsweek this past week in their article on Men. The blue collar uniform had "plumbing" in the shirt label. They don't get it either & that only reinforces the percieved notion that working with your hands and mind is somehow less valued than working from behind a desk. I can't imagine doing anything else in life than what I've been doing in the PHVAC fields. The satisfaction of having soldered a beautiful copper joint (as posted here in another thread by someone else) or combining that into an outstanding array of hydronics satisfies some deeper need in my psyche than most other things (except family stuff)in my life. As you said it so well, it's because of your personal integrity that the work gets done as it is, not for passing an inspection or because of some rule.

While the rest of the world concentrates on doing the Limbo, you're seeing how high Pole Vaulting can go!

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J.C.A.

Now....for something completely different....

Pardon the Monty Python lead line

Believe it or not, a town nearby, recently started sending all the "inspectors of oil fired equipment" to the New England Fuel Institute for training. I believe they are supposed to be licensed(new town reg.) in order to perform an "oil installation" inspection . I, for one applaud the decision of the town . Who better to inspect a job than one of our peers ? Of course, there has to be at least 2 , so someone isn't inspecting his own work.

Most of the cities and towns in Ma. have plumbers as plumbing inspectors, with a backup, if they are still active in the industry.(motto....Massachusettes, if there's a buck to be made for the city/town, we'll get it!)

I think that it's a must, but there have been some good arguments here for reasons there isn't.We sell safety above all ! Any chucklehead doing his own plumbing or heating work thinks it will be fine ...until there's a problem, then the excrement hits the air movement device in a hard way. In our fair state, if it was done properly, they have someone to sue/fall back on . In a DIY situation, WE are ultimately the ones who pay by having to foot the bills for litigation to the manufacturers.

Double edged sword INDEED ! Keep the bar high. Insist on fixing or bringing up to codes anything you run across that will bring on a lawsuit. After all....YOU WERE the last one there.(you think lawyers don't think about this?) Chris

Mark Hunt

Excellent points


You hit it right on HB.

It was tough enough getting inspectors to understand P/S piping.

The look on their faces when they see a Munchkin installation is priceless and I imagine you have fun with the Vitodens!

New York requires no liscence for heating work so anyone can play. A few cities in my area require permits for the installation of "heat producing appliances" and an inspection is supposed to follow. We ALWAYS get the permits and ALWAYS have our work inspected. There are a few really sharp inspectors around here that have been doing their homework. While they may not understand injection controls they DO understand venting and draft and they DO make contractors comply with the codes. Get caught performing work without the necessary permits and they will shut the job down. They tell me that they can forbid a contractor from working within their jurisdiction.

This only applies to those that they catch. An unmarked vehicle in a driveway won't attract much attention if the inspector happens to drive by.

The DIY shows on TV make it all look SOOOOOO easy and if you want "real, hands-on" instruction, just be at the orange box on Saturday morning where the resident expert will show you how to save big bucks and DIY!!!

Our industry needs to police itself. While manufacturers offer "training courses", they often are no more than long winded sales pitches. I've walked out of a few of those. Wholesalers knowingly sell products to contractors that are clueless, but hey, they got their money.
The inspector wants the sealed combustion boiler 18" off of the basement floor and a "make-up" air grill cut into the side of the house. Where did he get those ideas?
You can get a 40 gallon gas fired water heater installed for $325.00 from HD. Ya' think the guy installin' that water heater carries a combustion analyzer on his unmarked truck? And I am sure he reads ALL of the instructions and performs ALL of the safety tests prescribed by the manufacturer.

Someday HE will be the inspector.

Mark H



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MURPH'_2

HUSE a chucklehead??

the DYI that puts this stuff in, or the folks that "buy" this crap on thier conquest for shelter?? i see systems that are put in back in the twenties and thirties that are fairing better than the ones of the eighties and ninties. New construction you get what you pay for (sometimes) and it is all consumer driven, large fancy and cheep!! funny to know that plumbing and heating combined are less cost than landscaping, but nobody sees it!!


Murph'

Mark Hunt

HEY CHUCKLEHEAD!!!!


Pennsylvania doesn't count.

The laws of physics work differently there.

Mark H

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J.C.A.

Oh Murph....

I knew I could count on some comments from the peanut gallery ! How's things ? Great to see your name on the board.(other than detention). Chris

hot_rod

laws of physics?

According to one of our townships, all commercial buildings must be served by a 6" SS line. Oh, the interior SS line can be 4" but when it passes through the foundation, it must increase to 6". Evidently sewage solids expand once they escape the overhead pressures exerted upon them by the building's structure! That applies to little strip mall stores with just a 1/2 bath too. PA physics 101. Class dismissed(G).

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MURPH'_2

them magnetic signs.......

just keep getting more and more expensive !!seems they have some sort of tendency to peel-off right before we throttle down !! some days we are known to go through a dozen or so just getting to service calls, tell us Mark (if that is your real name?)how do you keep them on?? oh, thats right ,you drive a ford!! do you have extra ones for hangin around the pool .......


Murph'

Mark Hunt

Murph, if that is YOUR real name


I'll tell you my secrets if you tell us how many miles per gallon of transmission fluid you get with your company vehicle.

Mark H (Real name)

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Al Letellier

licensing and inspections

We have licensing in Maine for plumbing, electrical, oil burner work, solid fuel, and gas work. It Works!!!!
While it is impossible to cover a state this size with only four inspectors for oil and gas, and two for plumbing, we've had great success here in "raising the bar". Our Oil and Solid Fuel Board has passed legislation making unlicensed practice a Class C crime and they are using the power to uphold the rules and regulations.
Almost every town has plumbing and electrical permits and inspections and far too few have heating requirements, but it's getting better.
I am proud to say I hold plumbing and heating master licenses, gas service and installers licenses, and universal freon certification. I worked hard for these and I always take out permits whenever and whereever required. Just think of the liability issues solved when an inspector puts his stamp of approval on your work. You're a craftsman and he just proved it.
Sure, we have "butchers" like anywhere else, but now we can call our regulation boards and turn them in. I will always support licensing and inspections as the best way to improve the image of our industry. Use your various organizations to work together to build this kind of system in your state if you don't have it now. The silver and gold NORA program will help greatly in raising the standard!!!Heck, maybe someday we can have a national level licensing system that will allow us the freedom to go from state to state....wouldn't that be great!!

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ScottMP

Thanks Al

I was beginning to think I was very much in the minority here. I have seen way to many circulators installed upside down or flowchecks on their backs. These are simple things, not even close to boilers with no condensation protection. And as Mark says flue piping arrangments that bring death. Are we really to turn our backs on this because its too much of a hassle ? I've told potential customers " What if theres a problem and there is no permit, you insurance company covers NOTHING for unpermited job".

I know its tough for some of you guys who have NO ONE to look at your work or worse someone who has no clue.

Here in Mass where we have a pretty stronge board, I find the hacks come and go. Their not stopped but they don't last long.

When it comes right down to it, is'nt this what is trying to be done with RPA ?

Scott

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PJO_2

Another HO / DIY perspective...

Mark,

If you think you can do the work to code, how will you know? Do you have all the codes...plumbing/heating/electrical? Does your township provide these to you, along with time for educating you and answering questions?

The reason I ask is because my township - which is pretty small - inspected the install of my heating system in the new house on three occasions as it was being done by me and three other guys (one licensed, and two other techs...I basically did the tubing and baseboard install/selected the equipment and was a plumber's/AC helper).

I was the lead on the "project" and was there for two of the three inspections (one was a surprise). The inspector was very honest in his knowledge and experience, and told me he was not too familiar with hydronics and had no experience with direct vent boilers. We worked on it together...me showing him the kneepad (manual) and finding the BOCA codes and him digging through the local ones. We both learned a lot in the process.

I believe I was very lucky in that the situation worked out that way. If I was in a larger populated area, or didn't have a nice (honest/upfront/gave me his time) inspector, my "project" could have been real ugly. From what I read here, I may be VERY lucky :-)

Maybe I was nervous, but if I was "wrong" it may not have been a simple matter of a "re-inspection"...combustion appliance issues are not that simplified IMHO, and if the inspector isn't knowledgeable and acts like he/she is, that's pretty bad, too.

I agree with your thoughts on a licensed contractor and inspections...the time factor is probably a major reason. I do think that a final inspection should still be done - just skip any earlier ones if there are any, maybe?

Take Care, PJO

Mark J Strawcutter

good observations,

Patrick

The underlying assumption in my position is that the inspector knows his stuff. Perhaps too much to expect in the real world? Sounds like you got the next best thing in an inspector that was willing to read and learn.

I agree that a mistake will probably involve more than just a re-inspection. After re-doing everything 2-3 times and paying for the attendant re-inspections I'd hopefully get the idea :-) That's why I better be sure I know what I'm doing, and hire a licensed contractor if I don't. My proposal encourages that.

I would expect the local code-enacting body (township, boro etc) to let me know what codes apply and how to obtain (purchase) a copy. I would also expect them to provide a way to get their inspector's interpretation of a particular code provision - perhaps a certain number of interpretations included in the permit fee and others available for a charge?

Most of my direct experience in this area relates to electrical work. Around here there is no licensing, anyone can install a service, but it just needs inspected before the power company will hook it up.

Mark

Geno

Licenses

Gentlemen, the guv of CT recently gutted the Dept of Consumer Protection after he blew all our money. Less inspectors, Less accountability. I also recently worked at a large pharmaceutical co. for a subcontracter who broke all the laws but was not held accountable due to the polictical connections of the large pharm. co. So much for licensing and regulations.
geno...now an hvac instructor teaching people how to do it legally and right.