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Direct Vent and Snow

October Home
October Home Member Posts: 75
in THE MAIN WALL
Dear Wetheads,

For the second time this week I saw a direct vent outlet not 10" from the ground. Surely it'll get covered in snow by the first week in January (Kingston, NY). What's the fix? and Why is it done?

By the way, they were both new construction. Modulars with boilers.

Thank you all,

Arlene

Comments

  • David_5
    David_5 Member Posts: 250
    I have seen this too

    But I have never had a service call because it was buried in snow. However we rarely get more than 12".

    David
  • Jackchips
    Jackchips Member Posts: 344
    Doubtful

    there is a solution for people who won't read the instructions. They probably do not pull permits or have inspections. They are just poor contractors trying to make a living and if their lucky they won't kill anyone.
  • October Home
    October Home Member Posts: 75
    Do you mean literally?

    there is no fix? It can't be elbowed up or something? or were you making a sociological comment?

    > there is a solution for people who won't read the

    > instructions. They probably do not pull permits

    > and have inspections either. They are just

    > poor contractors trying to make a living and if

    > their lucky they won't kill anyone.


  • John Jr
    John Jr Member Posts: 210
    Inspector

    Where is the local inspector?

    John Jr
  • Firedragon_4
    Firedragon_4 Member Posts: 1,436
    Good code enforcement to

    answer your question.

    But, had a lawyer throw the following at me; when the OEM of the venting device and the codes says that it must terminate 12" above grade, do they mean natural grade or snow grade?

    Then he showed me the following, check it out, very, very interesting, hmmmmm, ;-0

    http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/monitoring/snowclim/mainpage.html
  • Steve Ebels
    Steve Ebels Member Posts: 904
    Arlene

    In almost every manufacturers manual that I have read, it will clearly state that the termination height is based on snow level, not grade. They usually call for a height of 12 to 18". This is especially a problem for direct vent appliances. (Intake and exhaust terminated through the wall)

    My own experience has been that the exhaust is not nearly as critical as the intake. The exhaust will keep itself thawed out in all but the most severe snowstorms. The intake however will suck in snow and seal itself off very rapidly. This causes the pressure switch to lock out and avert a catastrophe 99.9% of the time.
  • Floyd_3
    Floyd_3 Member Posts: 32
    Arlene,

    what you have ther is not really "direct vent", it is a power vented appliance, but it still is using the air from inside the home for combustion air. However, the job looks as though it was a "homeowner" installed deal.
    Also, you must have at least 12-15" under that pipe. That will usually keep it's self clear being that when ther is snow it is cold and the furnace or boiler will be running fairly often, thus keeping the snow melted away.
    Problems can accur sometimew if there are high winds and drifting snow, I have on accasion heard of homeowners that have had to shovel the snow away to keep there house warm.

    To anwser you question about a 90... yes I have run many up higher and it will work fine as long as the flue pipe is slopped down hill back to the appliance so that no trap is created and the condensate can drain all the way back to the drain.

    I have a way to cheat on some of the others, that will work just fine and is perfectly safe... and being that there is NO inspections or code where I live.... I am the only person that has to okay anything that I do.... but believe me I wouldn't do ANYTHING that would cause me to stay awake at night... I have enough trouble sleeping trying to figure out how I'm going to be a five places all at the same time in the morning!!!!!!!

    I would worry about that thing sticking out so far that some little kid will run by and get hurt from running in to it then the snow plugging it... if the snow plugs it it will just shut the thing down.... then they'll have to break out the shovel!!!! :-)

    Floyd
  • Bill NTSG
    Bill NTSG Member Posts: 321
    Also

    I like the line set that comes out right under the meter socket and the condeser right under the meter. It just looks sloppy and I think you are supposed to have 3sq ft of space directly in front of the meter. Nice weed too.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Arlene

    This appears to be one of our power vent termination fittings for the Series 2PV boiler. If this is the case, this can not be elbowed up and out. It was not certified or tested for that application and the acceptable equivalent vent lengths are around 20 feet for this series. Every elbow is equal to 5 feet of pipe. Also, the termination fitting openings should be facing up and down and not side to side. A sudden draft will have a negative effect on the ability to properly discharge flue gasses when mounted the way this is shown. We call for a minimum of 18" above grade for this discharge while taking into consideration additional height for appreciable snow accumulation for your area. Hope this helps.

    Glenn Stanton

    Burnham Hydronics
  • Jim_22
    Jim_22 Member Posts: 53
    Windows

    need to be considered also. Although none appear in the photo, manufacturers are very specific as to vent location in relation to windows, doors etc.

    It's all in the installation instructions, just not everyone takes time to read them.

    As far as snow goes, here in Rochester, NY, two years ago we had 42" fall in a 48 hr period.

    Man the Shovels!!

    Jim
  • Boonierat
    Boonierat Member Posts: 58
    Direct Vent & Snow

    We see this issue in New Hampshire ALL the time. Most either "don't-can't-or-won't really read the I/O manuals. They're pretty strait forward. Just for kicks I just glanced at page 5, Para. 5 in the Peerless DE series installation manual. "Ground level" or "Normal Snow Line" is the point where measurement begins. In Southern New Hampshire that can be 24". Add the 12" to that and the vent is at the 36" above grade mark. I've not seen too many vents that high, they're usually a lot lower.

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 23,405
    Dig a hole under it!

    Then you will get 18" :) Seriously though, it's at that heigth, generally, because that's where the rim joist is. Going higher would require a hole through the floor above and a small enclosure, with proper clearences, to protect it.

    I, too, have seen a number installed like that. Generally with the hot flue gases it's not a problem for snow blockage.

    This does not meet code or comply with the manufactures directions, however. Hate to have my name attached to an improperly installed vent termination. Usually there is a way to make it correct. Take some thought, time, and money. Hence the quick and dirty installs!

    hot rod
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Boilerpro_3
    Boilerpro_3 Member Posts: 1,231
    Say , Glenn

    I may be wrong, but in the older 2PV boilers it was required to installed the vent with the openings on the sides. I installed one about 8 years ago that way, and I usually read the instructions pretty carefully.

    Boilerpro
  • Dale
    Dale Member Posts: 1,317
    I wonder

    How long will it take for the kids or dog or lawn "care" person to bend that pipe down at the wall? Most kits have a snorkel up elbo or a cover for exiting near to siding to keep the heat away. What we have to tell people is to shovel the furnace exaust when you need to do the sidewalk, another good example for roof venting.
  • Firedragon_4
    Firedragon_4 Member Posts: 1,436
    In Canada and in Europe,

    most are going to outside air for combustion and venting above the roof line (that's both BTW).

    Don't knock it, they don't have the problems (and lawsuits) that we have and it's worked on mobile homes for years, FACT!
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Up and down Dave

    As far as I am aware, it has always been that way to prevent the pressure switch from being affected by drafts outside the house from either the left or right. Hope this helps.

    Glenn
  • October Home
    October Home Member Posts: 75
    Great,

    website!
  • October Home
    October Home Member Posts: 75
    Quite right.

    Of course. Its important to get the terms correct.

    Thank you, Arlene

    > what you have ther is not really "direct vent",

    > it is a power vented appliance, but it still is

    > using the air from inside the home for combustion

    > air.

  • October Home
    October Home Member Posts: 75
    It's a Weil-McLain

    CGI 5 PIN

    I found this website:

    http://www.weil-mclain.com/FTP/CGs_Manuals/CGs_Direct_Vent.pdf

    Which has a great little illustration of snow and wants 1' above it.

    Now I'm embarressed. I should have looked for the manual before I bothered you Wetheads.

    Sorry, Arlene
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Sure looked like ours!

    They apparently are using HeatFab for pipe and fittings too!

    Glenn
  • Mad Dog
    Mad Dog Member Posts: 2,595
    On Long Island, we call a guy that does work like that a ....

    "meatball" plumber - a real mutt! Ther's no good reason to leave a vent that long, and the height is another issue. I've never installed one less than 18" off of grade...not snow grade. Maybe the ho didn't want them to open walls or ceilings to attain the required height, but that is up top the Contractor to demand it! At least once a week we get a ho that tries to dictate where or how much baseboard should go in, or where the boiler should be placed. It is a delicate balance - their wants and reality. Mad Dog

    To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"
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