OK, I think I have the final piece to the puzzle...

Gary Myers

I think you have hit upon the answer. There is a cistern down in the basement! I'll have to see if I can find the hole where the pipe used to go.

These old boys definitely knew about water and steam. The father was the first water supervisor in town. The son was a steam fitter who eventually moved to New Hartford CT to work for Pratt & Whitney. I spoke to the grandson whose job it was as a teenager to oil the two pumping stations in town. He remembers a big old brass water gauge in the house which read out the town water pressure.

Fascinating stuff...

kframe

OK, I think I have the final piece to the puzzle...

But I need an opinion from the experts.

The situation -- In 1943, my Grandparents bought a 1903 American Victorian mansion in Central Pennsylvania. Very formal, full basement, 3 full stories, with servant's quarters on the third floor.

My parents now own the house, having bought it from my Grandmother when Grandpa died.

I know for a fact that it had a coal boiler when my family took the house, because that was one of Dad's jobs, tending the boiler and the "bucket a day" stove that provided the domestic hot water.

It seems as if this house had three different heating systems over the last 100 years.

First, it appears to have had a gravity hot air furnace originally. There are air returns in the basement that lead to the third floor to floor vents that are still there, and there are patches in the baseboards in some of the rooms on the first and second floors where it appears that vents were once located.

From there, it went to a hot water heating system. Judging by the style of the radiators, I'd have to say that that system was installed in the 1920s.

I had always assumed that it was a circulated hot water system, with approximately 15 to 20 radiators originally, with some of the radiators being replaced with Burnham cast iron baseboard in the 1950s when my Grandparents replaced the coal boiler with an oil boiler.

However, I just read the section on gravity hot water systems, which describe an expansion tank at the highest point in the system.

There is evidence of such a tank having been in the house at one point due to a bracket on the wall in the servant's quarters on the third floor, and also from my Father's recollections. It's gone, and now there is the typical expansion tank in the basement attached to the joists near the boiler.

My main question, then, is this...

Would a forced circulation system have used an expansion tank in the attic in this time frame, or is that location specific to gravity systems? I'm not 100% certain, but I don't recall ever seeing an overflow vent opening in the ceiling to go to the roof.

Is it safe to assume that the original hot water system was a gravity system?

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Gravity still \"ruled\" then...

...even though electricity was probably in the home. I believe reliable, residential circulating pumps were still a few years away.

The easiest way to tell that a system worked under gravity is the size of the piping. You should have two pairs of very large pipes (at least 3") that gradually diminish in size as they work their way around the basement away from the boiler. (The current connection to the boiler though will most likely be MUCH smaller.)

ScottMP

Also

Check next to the chimney for the piping leading to the old tank in the attic. An old open system like that would be the most common for a garavity system. Usually there would be two or three pipes right next to each other leading up next to the chimney to the open expansio tank in the attic. One was the feed to the tank, one was the overflow and the third was to allow circulation so the tank would not freeze.

Mike is right, check the size of the mains, but then again someone "may" have removed the larger piping.

Scott

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kframe

Yep, current connections to the boiler are what you would expect to see with a forced circulation system, so I don't think there's any way to tell from that standpoint.

About when did reliable circulator pumps become available?

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Do they rapidly increase in size after the boiler connection? The smaller near boiler piping (usually ½ the main size minus one size farther) is there to give the circulator something to "push" against.

Circulators/blowers work hardest when there is little or no restriction. Introducing some restriction actually makes them draw less current. If you have a Kirby vacuum look carefully at the amp draw on the nameplate--you will find that it draws significantly more amperage when used with the air hose as opposed to the rotating brush!

Another near certain indication of a gravity system is the size of the radiator tappings/valves. On your system the radiators closest to the boiler will likely have 1¼" if not 1½" or even 2" valves. I've yet to see a gravity system with a valve under ¾". Under gravity the heated wanted to go to the highest radiators and the dead men used all sort of "tricks" to get flow through those closest to the boiler.

I'm not certain when circulators came into common usage, but believe it was after WW-II. My old books make no mention of residential circulators--post WW-II texts though only include gravity sizing as a "some may still want it" sort of thing.

I believe reliable, long-lasting pump seals that could handle high temperature were the major problem.

Gary Myers

attic expansion tank

Hey, I think I have one of those attic expansion tanks! It is a large wooden box open on top, lined with copper. Right next to the chimmney, with a single copper outlet pipe which has been cut off.

I have one pipe steam with mostly column type radiators which would not have worked for hot water though (no connections at the column tops). There are only two thin tube type radiators in the house. Doesn't make sense. The house is circa 1897; not sure when the steam was put in. Can anyone think of another explanation for the attic box?

kframe

Well, I can't understand why you would have an expansion tank in the attic with a one-pipe steam system, unless it's a legacy from an even earlier heating system.

Steam systems don't need expansion tanks.

Steamhead

That attic tank

would have been for water supply, not the heating system. I'll bet there was (or is) a well on the property. Each morning someone pumped that tank full, and it supplied water by gravity to the house or farm all day. This was very common in the Midwest.

In later variations of this system, a float switch was installed on the tank and was used to start and stop an electric pump. You could also get regulators which would start and stop a windmill according to how much water was in the tank.

The Dead Men were geniuses!

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Steamhead

Circulators as we know them

first became available in the late 1920s. Prior to this, centrifugal pumps driven by steam or gas engines were used on very large systems, but smaller systems always worked by gravity.

I believe Homer Thrush came out with the first small electric circulator in 1928. In 1923, Mr. Thrush had started the H.A. Thrush company in Peru, Indiana (same place Bryan boilers are made) to market an accelerated-circulation system of gravity-hot-water heating using higher temperatures generated by pressurizing the system. The circulator was the next logical step. Both principles are used in today's hydronics.

Early Thrush circs were very distinctive-looking. They were huge, heavy vertical units. Thrush was part of Amtrol for a long time. Recently they broke away and are now completely independent. Their website is

http://www.thrushco.com/

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ScottMP

Steamhead

Those attic tanks where also used with very low preasure from the towns. Some even had a ballcock similar to a toilet valve.

The water was slowly supplied to the tank and then fed down to the fixtures to provided preasure. The kitchen sink had the best preasure of all.

Many time when renovating, the supply would be used for the hot water and new larger lines would be installed for the cold water.

The expansion tanks would be a galvanised tank while the water supply tank would be wood with a copper liner.

We live with history

Scott

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

Thanks Steamhead!

Filed that one away!

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Thanks Steamhead!

Filed that one away!

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Thanks Steamhead!

Filed that one away!

Steamhead

You might want to ask him

what kind of equipment they had, and if there are any pictures. My guess is those pumps were run by those big old gas engines with flywheels as tall as a man. He would have "oiled" them by filling one or more glass cylinders installed above the bearings, from which oil would drip at the proper rate to keep them from heating up.

This was a typical setup for small municipal systems, and many larger ones too. A few of these engines and pumps have found their way to collectors, who have restored them. There's nothing quite like seeing and hearing one of these old beasts running!

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