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Type of Boiler?

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Matt Connolly
Matt Connolly Member Posts: 67
in THE MAIN WALL
has to be condensing. Otherwise, its like driving with your foot on the gas and using the brake to control your speed.

Like Tom said, the Monitor MZ is an excellent choice. It has been around longer that almost any boiler of its type and will save you quite a bit on the installation, especially if you are using an indirect tank. It now has outdoor reset to maximze comfort and efficiency.

Check it out at www.mzboiler.com.

Good Luck!

Matt

Comments

  • bjurcina
    bjurcina Member Posts: 2
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    Type of Boiler?

    What brand and type of boiler should I be looking at. I am building a new house with radiant infloor heat in the basement and radiant hot water baseboard heat in the rest of the house. Thanks!
  • kevin
    kevin Member Posts: 420
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    fuel type?

    oil, gas?
  • Jamie_6
    Jamie_6 Member Posts: 710
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    ?

    Ah, warm and toasty floors are the way to go!

    I would not worry too much about the type of boiler as much as you have to worry about who is putting it in! A radiant system is not a "cheap" venture. So it is very important to check references, look at jobs, & research!

    I would recommend doing some sort of “Outdoor Reset” on your system! No matter what type of fuel you will be using this technique will save you wheel barrels full of money!

    But, I will tell you what boilers I prefer. (And you will get 100 different answers from 100 different heating guys/ gals)

    #1 Viessmann http://www.viessmann.de/web/germany/com_publish.nsf/Content/Home

    #2 Buderus http://buderus.net/

    #3 Peerless http://www.peerless-heater.com/


    Pompetti Heating & Air Conditioning, Inc.
    www.PompettiHVAC.com
  • Tom_15
    Tom_15 Member Posts: 7
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    We have been successful in using Monitor boilers for oil or gas (LP and Nat). If you need more assistance please email us.

    Thanks
  • Ted_5
    Ted_5 Member Posts: 272
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    Vitodens

    Viessmann Vitodens 200 94.2% AFUE or more in a radiant
    floor application! 3 sizes 91,000 124,000 174,000 230,000
    If you have any questions you can e-mail them to me.

    good luke,

    Ted
  • Guy_5
    Guy_5 Member Posts: 159
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    What Equipment?

    I certainly agree with the suggestion above to choose your contractor wisely. Even the best equipment is only as good as the people who stand behind it.
    As far as which equipment-look to the Manufacturers list on this site. Click on Heat Transfer Products and you can get info on our Munchkin boiler and Super Stor tanks. If you have any further questions, you can call us here at 1-800-323-9651.

    Thanks,

    Guy
  • PJO_2
    PJO_2 Member Posts: 36
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    \"Controlling your speed\"...

    Matt,

    Wouldn't a better description be to hit the gas and coast instead (not gas/brake)? Isn't this for the advantage of modulating versus a "regular" boiler, or outdoor reset (not condensing)?

    Just trying to clear things a bit...take care, PJO
  • Dave_13
    Dave_13 Member Posts: 110
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    Why....

    I just don't get why if you are going condensing that you wouldn't go modulating too. How can a non-mod. burner be as efficient as a modulating burner? Does the gas usage all work out in the wash based on time. i.e.- modulating runs longer?????
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,530
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    I like

    the MZ as well, but I think it's important for you to mention that you work for the company, Matt. bjurcina may not know that. Thanks.
    Retired and loving it.
  • Matt Connolly
    Matt Connolly Member Posts: 67
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    With a low mass condensing boiler

    that is properly sized, the modulation is good for about a 1% advantage in efficiency. The real advantage with modulating is when there is a large variation in the size of the heat loads in a given system. The MZ 25 (95MBTU) can service loads as low as 15MBTU without short cycling. Other modulating units become on / off at that load anyway, since they usually would only go down to 20MBTU or so.

    Matt Connolly
    Regional Sales Manager
    Monitor Products, Inc.
  • DAN AMBROSE
    DAN AMBROSE Member Posts: 3
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    boiler for radiant floor

    ONE WORD. VIESSMANN!VIESSMANN!VIESSMANN. www.viessmann-us.com vitodens boiler is a low mass modulating gas boiler. the vitola 200 is a high mass single stage boiler with no low limit temperature. both use weather responsive controls and are great for radiant floors or multiple temp systems. I have a vitola in my home and i love it. PS I am a contractor, i don't work for viessmann. I've tried the rest and this is the best.
  • Kevin_10
    Kevin_10 Member Posts: 20
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    100 % agree

    I am also a homeowner who had a terrible experience with radiant flooring due to an installer who had no idea what he was doing. It will cost me to get it done correctly, but I have found the rigth guy to correct it. Find the right guy the first time around and save yourself some grief and sleepless nights. I have kicked myself in the butt many tines.
  • Steve Eayrs
    Steve Eayrs Member Posts: 424
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    Who offers good service in your area....

    should be a big consideration. Without good reps., parts, education, and information, you don't want it.

    Around Alaska.....Veissmann is excellent at all the above, and spends a lot in training, etc... Buderus is also great, as well as Tekmar and some others.

    Monitor....I would have to say is somewhere on the bottom of the list. This is a huge State, (have a few glaciers that are bigger than some of the other States, and its over twice the size of Tex.), and one rep. is all they have. Leave a message on his phone and most likely you will not hear back. And this is not for service or parts, but just wanting information on them!!

    May not be the same problem in your area, but it makes a big difference up here.

    Steve
  • kf_2
    kf_2 Member Posts: 118
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    Monitor

    Matt,

    According to my Monitor catalog, the MZ25 requires a minimum system flow of 3.25 GPM. While I see that at the bottom of this same page that the minimum load is indeed 14,000 BTUH that would mean about a 8.6 degree delta T. Now your literature says that your boiler won't condense unless return temps are less that 127 deg F. so at an 8.6 deg delta T that means a minimum supply temp of 136 degrees is needed to insure condensing. (you'll be sorry you ever gave me that catalog)

    While I agree that this is extremely possible in a radiant floor application, the point I'm trying to make is that a fully modulating gas valve allows a much lower minimum flow through the boiler (in the Vitodens' case 1 GPM). This allows you a larger delta T with a lower return water temp. Or the same system with 136 deg supply will have a return temp of 116 degrees with an even smaller load.

    By my calculations the savings with a FULLY modulating gas valve would be closer to 4%. Thats the difference between a condensing boiler and a cast iron sectional boiler.

    kf
  • Matt Connolly
    Matt Connolly Member Posts: 67
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    Kevin, I'll never be sorry

    I gave you that manual - as long as we can still have intelligent discussions about things. (which we are right now). One thing that the Vitodens has that no other unit has in the US is a variable speed primary pump. That is where the difference is with your delta T and efficiency. With the MZ, my point was about short cycling for a small load, not neccesarily keeping it in condensing mode the entire time for that load. Also, not every MZ is piped in a P/S loop system for every application; therefore the range of loads it can accomodate is wide.

    Your point about efficiency is slightly off, the data I use is from the factory in Europe who have told us that overall, when averaged out, the difference in efficiency between mod and non mod condensing MZs is about 1%. Also, a conventional sectional unit should be no less than 20% less efficient than a fully condensing boiler in real world (not steady state lab test) applications.

    Viessmann is lucky they have you!

    Regarding rep service - if anyone is not getting the service they need, contact me directly. I'll personally take care of it.

    Matt Connolly, Regional Sales Manager, Monitor Products, Inc. 610-758-9005
  • Doc Radiant
    Doc Radiant Member Posts: 57
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    The Viessmann product is a world-class boiler in design and function. There is a preponderance of proprietary parts used, they usually require some "proprietary experience" to service and they certainly carry a world-class price tag. If none of these issues are a concern, you can't go wrong with these boilers.

    You say "radiant baseboard" is going to be used except for in the basement, which may account for only a small percentage of your heating load. Radiant floor heating in a concrete slab operates at very low supply temperatures, so a condensing boiler would offer benefits in energy consumption. However, I don't know what your "radiant baseboard" is. If it's something like cast iron baseboard that typically operates in the 160 to 180 degree range, a condensing boiler will offer little energy savings benefit.

    Boilers with modulating inputs are the wave of the future and offer the potential for considerable energy savings. What you have to decide is whether they are worth the extra money to install, the extra cost of maintainence/repair, and accessibility of qualified people to service it. There's much to be said for simple, mid-range efficiency cast iron boilers that cost far less and can be repaired by the average heating contractor. The durability of this type of boiler is well established.

    A boiler cannot be effectively chosen without careful consideration of the system it's connected to. Beyond boiler efficiency, there is system efficiency and even efficiency of system design. As already pointed out, I would rather have "ordinary" equipment expertly installed in a well designed system as compared to the "latest and greatest" installed by someone who is not fully up to the task.

    I hope you find my commentary helpful.
  • Ted_5
    Ted_5 Member Posts: 272
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    In new construction you can design

    any base board system to opperate at 150F to 130F to keep your boiler in the condensing mode under design conditions.

    Ted
  • Doc Radiant
    Doc Radiant Member Posts: 57
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    "In new construction you can design any base board system to opperate at 150F to 130F to keep your boiler in the condensing mode under design conditions."

    As long as you don't mind nearly doubling the amount of baseboard required.
  • Ted_5
    Ted_5 Member Posts: 272
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    In new construction

    For flat panal rads a multiplyer of .70 of the rated outputs
    and basic Slant/fin Fine/Line 30 at 180F 4 gpm is 610 btu/ft
    and at 150F 4 gpm is 400btu/ft.If you had a 100,000 btu load that is only 86' more ft. x about $20.00 installed for slant/fin per/ft. = $1,720.00. I think it would pay back
    in only 3 years. What do you think it would save in 10 yrs?

    Ted
  • Doc Radiant
    Doc Radiant Member Posts: 57
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    Ted, the point is not the cost of the baseboard, it's (1)whether there's enough wall space and (2) if the customer wants all of that extra wall space taken up with baseboard when it has to be derated to the lower outputs.

    Low temp systems (such as radiant in a slab) are wonderful applications for condensing boilers. With systems that require (or work more efficiently with) higher temps, much of the appeal (and advantages) of using the more complex, more expensive condensing boiler is lost.
  • Alec Baldwin
    Alec Baldwin Member Posts: 1
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    Monitor MZ Boilers

    These boilers are excellent and very, very efficient. Simple install - great efficiency for radiant at 95% and should last a long time. No problems - same design with current updates for 25 years. No need for modulation as it runs at 95% - but you will need to have a drain for the condensing. I bought one last year from Houseneeds, Inc. - 802-583-2726. I used the 25C with a BS40 gallon indirect tank for my house of about 2,000 sf.
  • Steve Ebels
    Steve Ebels Member Posts: 904
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    There's another angle

    To look at the baseboard with.

    Assume the following:

    BB output rated at 180*.

    BB length sized to provide the calculated load at design temperature + 10% CYA factor.

    Percentage of the year spent at design temp. Typically less than 5%.

    Given these parameters your calculated amount of BB is oversized 95% of the year.

    SO. Given that we have too much baseboard for nearly all the year, we can.

    A. Install the typical length of BB because we're going to allow the boiler to hit 180* (Or whatever you choose)

    B. Modulate our water temps down to achieve higher boiler efficiency. Depending on how much "cya" you've built into the sizing, you can probably keep the boiler in condensing mode for most of the heating season without adding mega lineal feet of BB.

    Ask me how I know this
  • Dave_13
    Dave_13 Member Posts: 110
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    O.K.

    How do you know that???
  • Steve Ebels
    Steve Ebels Member Posts: 904
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    Done it.

    It seemed like it would work that way in my gut feeling area. (wherever that is) so I tried it. The place runs with only outdoor reset and a T87 on each zone (apartment) to protect against overshoot. The boiler, non-condensing type, is running on a 1.2 curve which starts at 70* giving me an avg temp of around 160-165 at design (-10*). The pump logic built into the control protects the boiler from condensing.
    Long story short, the only time the system sees 180* is when it's making DHW or at 0* or less. The rest of a typical winter it runs 115 to 150. Testo shows combustion efficiency in the 85% range at anything below 140* water temp., around 83% at 160-180*. How's $322.00/month (this past Feb) for 7,200 sq ft and DHW for 12 people sound. The fire side of the boiler is clean, the tenants are happy, the landlord is happy and that makes Steve happy. As for electric costs for constant circ. The apartment that has the boiler and primary circ in it runs about $8 more a month than the other apartments. (that's for an 011 Taco) Not much in my book.

    Works for me!
  • Doc Radiant
    Doc Radiant Member Posts: 57
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    Steve, I agree - the addition of outdoor reset to the condensing boiler makes it a more attractive option. But I can hear the customer now -

    "So how much $$ are we up to now on this new system? How long is that fancy control and boiler guaranteed for? Do you guarantee your labor beyond the 1-year mark? How much money am I going to save?"

    Not to knock any of the high tech stuff, God knows I've installed plenty of it myself. But I think expectations of how much money could be saved on energy must be tempered with how much more it's going to cost to install, and how much more it might cost to fix it if it breaks. I think we owe that level of honesty to our customers.
  • Matt Connolly
    Matt Connolly Member Posts: 67
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    Coming full circle here...

    this is why I brought the Monitor MZ in the first place. It doesn't cost much more to install then many conventional boilers (I've got proof) and the damn thing is nearly bullet proof! Finally, there's an aspect to business calles sales. That's when you remind your customer about the benefits (not features) of what you are going to do for them for the money they are paying you. Think of added space (with a wall hung boiler) No need for a chimney, no air infiltration (with sealed combustion) and the virtues or environmental friendliness. That's what will justify the equipment vs. the price driven stuff.

    Good Luck!

    Matt Connolly Regional Sales Manager, Monitor Products.
  • Boilerpro_3
    Boilerpro_3 Member Posts: 1,231
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    Hey Steve, I've done the same thing

    However, I'd suggest you take one more thing into account. Apartment structures generate alot of internal gains, so the heat needed to be provided by the system is much lower at any outdoor temp than what is usually calculated. In the apartment structure I worked on, the warm weather shut down is set at 55F. Basically internal gains provide enough btus to keep the interior 15F warmer than outside. Since this is the case, if you have an 80F delta tee as your design temp differential from indoors to out (your total UA in your design calc), your actual load is only at a 65F design temp, which in turns drops your peak supply water temp needs. I set my supply water at 70F at 55F outdoor and then run up from there. On a typical winter day (about 20F outdoor average) you'll probably only need about 110 to 120F supply to heat the structure. These temps should give you alot of condensing efficiency.

    Boilerpro
  • heatboy
    heatboy Member Posts: 1,468
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    If I remember correctly...........

    you bought the Monitor because you thought my price was outrageous ;-)

    hb

    To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • Matt Connolly
    Matt Connolly Member Posts: 67
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    Jeff, I did the job myself

    because I thought your price was outrageous. That was before I even got into this industry. I was getting bids of 25% of what you offered, but for scorched air, not radiant. I now realize that your price was merely high but worth the money, if I chose to spend it. Instead, I did the radiant job myself and was so impressed with the Monitor MZ that I got a job with the company. That was March of 1999. Funny how things work out.

    Matt Connolly, Regional Sales Mnager, Monitor Products, Inc.
  • Doc Radiant
    Doc Radiant Member Posts: 57
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    Heatboy, what do we know?

    Prices too high, promotin' that "price driven" stuff alongside Orange (I know, new color now) and Blue, it's amazin' anyone fell for any of it! ;)

    BTW HB, do you see Wheels anymore? I hear he's back in the wholesale gig - give him a kiss for me if you see him. Say hi to Wendy too!
  • heatboy
    heatboy Member Posts: 1,468
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    Miss you, Doc!

    It's really good to see you here again. Yes, I still hang with Wheels. Broke bread a tipped a few last week with him. He is lovin' the wholesale gig. We do a bit of biz. Life good on the Isle of Long?

    hb

    To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • Doc Radiant
    Doc Radiant Member Posts: 57
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    Alive & kickin'

    HB, Good to hear Wheels is well! All is well here - the boy just graduated SUNY Albany Cum Laude with a double major, has decided to make mom & dad even more broke by staying for grad work; oldest daughter starting her freshman year at a State U this fall, so the Mrs. and me will be living on peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for a while; and the youngest has 3 more years to go in high school before I'll have to take the 4th mortgage on the house. And of course, the traffic on LI still sucks!

    Hey, I haven't cleaned my Blue Boiler in 4 years - think I should do it this summer? The Riello is encased in spider webs....
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