Hydro-air vs. forced air

Art Pittaway

what brand of hydro-air did you use? I know the big boys like Carrier and such make hydronic air handlers but what's available and from who? The Janitrol scortched air that came with my house is almost 10 years old now so I'm thinking ahead.
Art

andy s

Hydro-air vs. forced air

I am considering hydro-air vs. forced hot air as a retrofit into my existing home and a new addition. Current home has hot water baseboard. Does the hydro-air system provide a significantly better comfort level vs. the additional cost.

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

stick with the

baseboard. it's much more comfortable than f.h.a. bob

Jim Erhardt

I agree with Bob, either will be a step down in comfort from baseboard. That said, I would go hydro-air if I had to choose. At least I'd have a boiler at the core of the system to install some zones of radiant, towels warmers, baseboard, snow melting, domestic water heating, etc.

Michael B

could not agree

more. I replaced a forced air system in the house I just bought with a hydro-air because I had no choice. You do...stick with the baseboard if you can. Upgrade the baseboard if you don't like the current type/style. All kind of great stuff out there runtal, buderus, etc. If you are interested in forced air for cooling take a look at Space-Pak or other high velocity systems.

Michael Bleier
Able Distributors
www.abledistributors.com
"The Supplier Who Works With You"

Michael B

hydro-air

I took out 2 carrier builder grade 10 seer a/c 80% eff furnaces and 2 50 gallon H20 heaters. Replaced with Viessmann boiler (Vitodens), 2 Tappan Variable Speed Air Handlers, seperate hot water coils (field installed) and 2 12 seer a/c units and 1 79 gallon indirect (Viessmann). The reason I went with the Vitodens was venting (sealed combustion, direct vent) and lack of space in mechanical room. Just hung it on the wall and piped to my two H20 coils. The Vitodens comes with a Domestic Hot Water Productino kit which consists of a manifold with 2 extra ports for piping directly to indirect. No primary secondary, no boiler protection, minimal piping, maximum control of boiler water and forced air through Variable Speed motors. Still tinkering with the curves and computer control on the boiler but having fun with my new toys.

P.S. I added a steam humidifier, 2 Fantech HEPA filtration systems and an HRV for fresh air...lots of fun.

andy s

Thanks,

What's the advantage of the high velocity ( e.g. Unico ) vs. "standard" forced air cooling?

Dave_16

None....

Except for price, you need many more outlets with a unico then you do with a conventional system, the biggest difference is the pipe diameter, which is unimportant if you already have a forced air duct sytem, you may just need to add a high return. Also the bottom line is the bottom line hot air is hot air whether it be fire heating the steel or hot water heating the coil, moisture and or humidity does not come out of a hydro air

Steve Ebels

Air Handlers

Check out Life-Breath/Nu-Tech. They have a very complete line of basic air handlers as well as their Clean Air Furnace. This unit is an air handler with an HRV built into it and can be had in standard typr or variable speed drive. I have used many and had great results with them. Call them up at 519-457-1904. I'm sure they can put you in touch with someone who carries their product. If you live in Michigan, call me at 231-826-3535. Website is www.lifebreath.com

Bill Nye

Andy, only

if you are considering central A/C. Hot water baseboard is much more comfortable.

Hydro air has a must faster response time than standard warm air furnace. You do not have to wait for the heat exchanger to warm up at the begining of the cycle and you do not have to wait for it to "unload" at the end of a cycle.

This means more accurate temperature control. Smaller temperature swings and less overshoot. More comfortable too because you have more control over the discharge temp at the registers. Just adjust the water temp.

I have installed close to a hundred air handlers. I have had good luck with First Company. I strongly dislike Heat-Controller, the silly b------s silver braze test caps on the hot water coil. Go ahead and try removing them in an 125° attic after the duct and insulation have been installed.

Dennis - Reliable Services

Hydro air can't hurt, but do you need it in your application ?

In my area, in the 1970's, heat pumps were shoved down the throats of new buyers by builders. They were sold as the future of heating and they included FREE air conditioning.
With electricity at 15 cents a KWH in the area.

The installation of a gas or oil fired boiler and hot water coils in the duct work, and disconnecting the electric back up heat is a real benefit. This installation has been made a snap with the use of pex tubing.

Installing an indirect tank in place of the 75 gallon electric water heater is a great addition.



I did this same installation in my brothers all electric house the one with a CT cabinet and a 1000 amp electrical service, yes the previous owner had 100 kw total of electric heat.

My brother bought this place from an estate and thought he got a great deal on this house, then the first $1200 electric bill showed up.

His electric tank was new, so we installed a coil in the boiler with a bronze pump to use the old tank as a storage tank as the house has 4 baths and 9 occupants. Now everybody is all smiles!

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Hi-velocity air advantage

Beyond the abilility to be installed PROPERLY without harming the structure or appearance of old homes, hi-velocity A/C is exceptionally good at removing humidity.

I'm in humidity "heaven" and have felt a number of these systems AND have seen the electric bills. The mfgr claims of "greater comfort at higher air temperature" ARE valid!

Around here A/C installers will say that the extremely high-efficiency condensing units are not particularly cost-effective because they do not remove as much humidity as other "less efficient" units. The statement heard here and elsewhere that the "hi-velocity units reduce the SEER of condensing units" is likely valid.

HOWEVER, mfgrs of high-velocity units have ALWAYS recommended the highest efficiency condensing units available with the understanding that they will make such greatly exceed their "standard" humidity removal ability.

I've felt them, seen the bills and observed the amount of condensate produced. The mfgr claims seem to be true by all of these counts.

They must be more carefully engineered than traditional systems and they MUST be VERY well-sealed to operate. Two more "plusses" in my book.

Even in non-retrofit applications of high quality they seem to make sense--most particularly if summertime humidity levels are high.

jfox

Can brazed joints be separated like sweat joints can?

Both my Unico evaporator coil and hydrocoil had brazed on caps like you describe. The AC gyy who hooked up the evaporator coil burned right through the cap before it ever loosened up, so I just cut the hydrocoil caps off and sweated on connectors. Unico provided damn little room to work or margin for error. I cannot understand why Unico, or any manufacturer, does this. All the caps do is keep a nitrogen charge in the coils.

Anyway, I would like to know if brazed joints can be heated up and taken apart like sweat joints can.

Thanks for any enlightenment,

John

Bill Nye

yes,.....

but a with a great deal of heat and a tremendous amount of difficulty. The once brazed fitting is usually so oxidized and overheated soldering is not always possible.

You are also correct in that they do not leave enough room to cut off the test cap and then solder a fitting.

Yes I know A/C people do this all of the time with refrigerant coils but we are talking about a hot water coil. We don't need no stinkin' nitrogen.

Dennis - Reliable Services

We do it all the time, you need oxy-acetalene,

in tight quarters. A turbo torch can get hot enough but you'll fry everything around it. The copper will be over heated and a great deal of cleanup will be needed. We braze threaded adapters on the end of the hot water coils.
Why unico can't do this I don't know. Hey, they're the only game in town.

Dennis - Reliable Services

I have installed Unico as well as traditionally ducted systems,


I don't know where the idea comes from that you have to alter the structure of a home to install a low velocity system. To properly install a Unico type system you need to run a round main trunk line, with a 9.5 inch outside diameter. The branch lines should be no longer that 10 feet, or you must run extra branch lines.



Branch lines that are run between floors have to be covered with soffits, or the walls have to be opened to permit the removal of the top and bottom plates.



High velocity units are good in some applications, but I prefer installing tradition ducted systems, if designed properly, they are quiet, the ducting does not have to be as tight as high velocity systems, since the pressure in the duct is lower.



The one thing that high velocity has over low velocity systems is all the design has been done by the manufacturer, just follow the installation instructions and it will work. I have a neighbor who bought a system from a local plumbing supply house, he installed all the duct as they told him to do. He called me to braze the lines to the blower and condensing unit, this system works fine. He spent $4500 in material for his ranch house cooling system. He had gotten an estimate from Unico, they quoted $9600 for the install.

I didn't want to burst his bubble, we install 13seer brand name cooling systems in homes like his for about $7000.

flange

all of the above are certainly true, however, it might be nice to add the hydro air to address some other issues. depending on how tight your remodel is, you may not get enough air changes to keep a healthy environment. hydro will allow for utilization of outside air and energy recovery. you will also be able to add a good quality humidifier with reset which can make your home much more comfy at lower temps. this is being done more and more, especially on radiant jobs. just my $.02

Bill NTSG

Dennis

I can braze and I have oxy/acetylene outfit, but my point is WHY? do they have to braze the caps on?

Every other brand has a little blue or red plastic cap press fit inside/over the supply/return tube. What should take 5 minutes can take hours. Another company is supplying the equipment my boss has to hook it up.

Dennis - Reliable Services

It must be cheaper, they figure they're already brazing the ,

the coil together why not braze a cap on. They don't fall off in shipping. Maybe the are a waste product of production. Janitrol does this to their coils maybe Janitrol makes Unico coils!

jfox

I think you're right Dennis

They are just braze happy.

If they gave another inch or two to the stub you could just cut it and sweat on a fitting without much sweat (heh, heh), how much would that cost? 50 cents?

I hope Unico listens here and gets it.

John