How big is solar?

Jim Erhardt

Jack, I don't have any info on that. What I do sense is that energy conservation is not the burning issue it once was, which IMO is unfortunate. FWIW, the U.S. consumes about 25% of the world's energy resouces.

John R. Hall

RPA seminar

I sat in on a seminar at REX in Sacramento recently and the speaker talked about the resurgence of solar power. It kinda reminded me of the big push back in the 70s, when we were facing an energy crisis, contrived or not. I am curious as to whether any Wallies feel that solar is going to be an important mix in our efforts to find alternative energy sources in the years to come. Your answers will help an article I am writing on the subject.

Jackchips

You should

end up with better sources from Mass than me John, but I will offer my two cents.

Solar was huge when there were government grants but almost to the day they stopped, so did the installations. I was not involved in the sales, installation or service but a former apprentice, who had started his own business, did them almost exclusively. His business stopped when the grants did.

One other note. Almost all the panels that were installed on roofs in this area were removed as the roofs were replaced.

You would think in this technological society there would be a way to compete with fossil fuel. It appears, though, until the billions of gallons are diminished, oil will rule.

Good luck with your article.

Jack

hot_rod

Thinking about the sun

I'm bummed I missed the REX this year. I was really looking foward to Mike Tierney's solar radiant seminar. Guess it will be on DVD from the RPA.

Get a copy of the May issue of JLC. Good article about a Rhode Island remodeling contractor that started a solar spinoff company www.solarwrights .com The article claims California, Florida, Massachusetts, NJ, NY, PA, and RI have real good incentives for solar. A list of state by state is at www.dsireusa.org (database of state incentives for renewable energy)

Solar Today mag is another good source for info on large and small solar thermal and PV projects.

In my opinion solar DHW preheat should be strongly considered on every new or remodeled home. Properly done, passive solar can be a huge energy saver, also.

hot rod

Heatermon

Solar thoughts from San Diego

I started my carreer as a solar installer in sunny San Diego. We couldn't put the systems in fast enough back in 79-85. When the tax credits went out, so did the business. For a short while later, there were some areas of our county that required it. We still have some municipalities that require we run a supply,return and sensor wire from the roof to the water heater area for "future" solar. I'm afraid that the majority of our solar business is now removing panels when the roofs are re-done and not putting them back on. A small amount of people still have us replace the solar storage tanks when they fail, but almost all of them have only electric as a backup heating source. Back before California's energy "crisis" there was little to no intrest in solar due the fact that with electric @10 cents a kw it would take 15 years for the average system to payback and when you went to natural gas @60 cents per therm it was closer to 30 years to break even. We saw alot of intrest come our way since the crises, but without the rebates, we have as yet to sign a contract for a solar water heating system. The last one we did was in 96 for a friend that really wanted it in his new house, otherwise this is pretty much a "dead" industry. However, the guys who are still going strong are the ones installing solar heat on the many swimming pools people are installing around here. Those guys are busier than ever, but only because the pool contractors are doing a great job of marketing it. It's funny how people will spend thousands of dollars on things they consider luxurious (swimming pool solar) but won't even consider it for a necesity like their domestic hot water. Any way good luck with your article, if you need or want any additional info, let me know.

Heatermon

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

Fine Homebuilding

Just did an article on solar, PV in particular.

With the vast majority of states offering net metering and some offering really hefty subsidies ($3,000/kw in CA) it's becoming more viable and common.

However, at a true cost between 0.20-0.40 kwh over the life of a quality system, it still seems to have a LONG way to go. No mention is made, but I suspect that the energy required to produce the systems still exceeds the amount they produce in most applications.

As Hotrod mentions, DHW preheating seems to be one of the best applications that actually results in more energy produced than used to create.

Converting sunlight to electricity is still an extremely inefficient process--15% efficiency at best with many less than 8%. Should efficiency get to the 30% range, it would be much more viable.

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

solar is the way

what are our options for the future? p.v. seems like it will be a while before it's cost effective. water seems like the way to go. i think we have to heat our homes, not just our domestic hot water, for a bigger piece of the pie. people love radiant floors, they will love solar heated radiant floors. and the payback will be a lot quicker. Mike Tierney's course in sacramento was excellent. full of information you can't get anywhere. i'm going to to be adding a lot of collectors to my system soon and i'll be looking for some help here on the wall. bob

munchkin-man

Heat Transfer Products Inc. makes a dual coil indirect SSUC

that can be used to harvest the energy from the sun and a efosel fuel unit as a combination so that when the sun shines brightly one can take advantage of the free energy from the big fire ball in the sky. As once stated the sun is mans domain. Why not take addvantage of the sun and still enjoy the ease and security of a traditonal or high efficiency boiler to complement the free energy. Simply use a dual coil indirect by supplying the solar heated water from a solar pannel to one of the coils while the getting is good and on a cloudy day when the sun can not raise the water temp to the desired temp needed to recover the load, use oil or gas to suplement the btu's needed to drive the loss. See www.htroducts.com for the info you will need to take addvantage of the earths free energy.

Floyd_3

Here in Northern Pa.......

It would be like selling Ice to an Eskimo!!!!!

Haven't seen the sun for more than a couple of hours at a time for uh,,,,,,,geeee........


I don't KNOW!!!!! Seems like AGES!!!!!!

Maybe last summer sometime.....

Can't beg, borrow, or steal any sun......

Floyd

Joe_10

solar

Just some thoughts. What other heat source gives you a payback? Does anyone truly believe that fossil fuel prices will go down? Any return on money is better than all loss. I know economics get more complicated than that. The state of New Mexico is putting out to bid for solar components for thermal and PV to bid to be in the state wide pool. Our Gov. wants a modest rebate for solar of all kinds. Didn't get it this time around due shrinking Revenues.

Joe

Jim Erhardt

As a TLC/Science/History channel junkie, former science teacher and with a few years invested in this industry, I have my thoughts on this subject.

I think at some point in the future, our survival will depend on lowering (or perhaps eliminating) our reliance on fossil fuels. Photovoltaic still has a ways to go, but the technology continues to progress. At some point, I believe solar cells will become standard equipment in homes. The real Holy Grail of energy production? Sustainable nuclear fusion. As compared to present day nuclear fission technology that relies on the decay of radioactive elements (splitting atoms), nuclear fusion combines hydrogen atoms and produces no radioactivity or dangerous byproducts - just copious amounts of energy. The same process by which our sun burns and once thought to be technologically impossible, there have actually been some significant steps made recently at MIT that has brought the idea of this virtually limitless, environmentally friendly energy source closer to reality. Will we see it in our lifetime? Not likely, but perhaps in our childrens' or grandchildrens' lifetimes - assuming our "antisocial" tendencies towards others of our species does not result in a major catastrophe.

Here's a link of interest on the use of nuclear fusion as an energy source -

http://www.pppl.gov/fusion_basics/pages/fusion_basics.html

In the mean time, we can do our part by showing our customers how to use less energy to heat their homes and domestic water - that's what this "wet head" thing is all about!

John R. Hall

Thanks

I appreciate the feedback. I'd like to make some of the comments into a sidebar article to go along with the one I just completed on the Mike Tierney seminar.

Jackchips

Jim

as a former Science Teacher, do you have any information on how much oil, gas and coal there is available and any projections on a depletion time table?

I offer the question to any else who may be in the energy field or who may have read up on the issue.

I don't feel any alternative will be "acceptable" until we reach the end game. Fusion, hopefully, will be an alternative in the future, along with whatever else mankind comes up with.

Thanks

John@Reliable_2

Floyd, stole my words too! sun is missing in ma Help us!

John@Reliable

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

no one said

it is going to be easy. Margaret Mead once said "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed it is the only thing that ever has." I read that in Home Power mag. bob

George Peteya

It's a secret ...

... solar pool heating, that is. The most Btus for the buck. I have solar heated my 16x32 pool since 1988, with 400sf of unglazed collector, and with a 700sf bluestone deck system since 2000.

Compared to LP gas, the most common fuel for pool heating in upstate NY, the payback is two seasons at the most. The roof system alone has produced (15 years x 120 days x 6 hours x 200 btuh/sf x 400 sf) = 864,000,000 Btu! And the attic is cooler ...

The deck system cools the bluestone from 150 to 125 degrees, and heats the pool. Tax credits? Govt. incentives? Who cares? This just plain makes sense.

And for you guys installing snowmelt systems in driveways: guess what you can use that snowmelt system for in the summer? Solar pool heater! What a winner that is!

Boilerpro_3

Another use for that snowmelt in summer

Domestic water heating!

Boilerpro

Boilerpro_3

Probably the easiest way to cut U.S. energy consumption.....

is to properly match heat sources with heat loads. Amory Lovins, whom I believe still has done the only thorough anlaysis of energy usage in the US, came to this conclusion. I believe his figure (circa 1978?) was that we could cut energy usage in half with no changes in our lifestyle by matching energy sources to end uses. Some examples.... using electricity to cook food, where a more efficient and lower intensity energy source like gas would work. Another example, using electricity to melt steel, where gas, oil, or coal would be more appropriate. The idea was to get away from the effect of using a sledgehammer to kill a fly.... match end usage intensity to source intensity.... high temp sources for high temp needs and low temp sources for low temp needs.

Another way is to begin looking at where we live and work. Its sort of interesting that dispite the fact that the an average vehicle's fuel economy in the US has doubled since the early 70's, we still use the same amount of fuel per capita. Guess what, we now drive twice as much as we used too. Our city's suburbs are a constant traffic jam, with everybody living in one place, having to drive miles to shop in another (the US has been "Malled"), and then driving even further to get to work. Not too many folks live somewhere that the can walk to the store and walk to work. Its pretty funny, people will spend an hours worth of time (what is your hourly income or the value of your free time), put 20 dollars of wear and tear on their vehicle, pay higher taxes to build big roads to accomodate all thier driving, so they can save 20 dollars by driving over to Walmart at the mall. Or they will drive a 2 hour commute every day to a higher paying job, with all the above costs, somehow thinking they are going to have more money. You'd be suprised at what you'll learn when you do the math, you're usually better off shopping nearby and accepting a lower paying job that is closer.

Boilerpro

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Why oh why dear Sir...

...can't more people see the TRUE WISDOM in what you have said?

While I love my car and would have a hard time doing without it, they are the best example of a solution that creates endless problems. Most "modern" development has reached the point that the problems created are far worse than the problems it attempts to solve.

Seemingly well-intended and benign governmental actions like the Americans with Disabilities Act have only increased the problem. If you don't believe me, look at most new schools (particularly elementary). Instead of being multi-floor, compact, centrally-located affairs with [shudder] staircases and [horror] within walking distance of many, they are now sprawling single-floor buildings with such huge lot requirements that they are located at the fringes of development.

I still insist that my little town is a true "poster child" for asanine development. With a population of about 25,000 permanent people (a college town) the area of the city is larger than St. Louis (and even Dallas, TX I believe).

The required single-family lot size is quite large (10,000 sf). While the terrain is very hilly and expensive to develop, roads are nearly random as farmer Brown sells his 40-80 acres for subdivision and are thrown in with the least possible earth movement. Precious few intersections are at right angles and most streets are one-"block" roads to nowhere. We have way too many intersections where the only people who have good sight lines are driving a dump truck or semi--we're well-known for "gun it and pray" intersections! What I find truly amazing is that the heart of town (it used to be just as hilly) was developed reasonably level with picks, shovels, muscle and dynamite!!!

A big-city residential development company wants develop a 900-acre tract (recently annexed) with only 700 high-end homes--talk about low density! Well and fine if THEY PAY! But NO! They want a tax increment finance district where the increased real estate tax (for about 20 years) goes solely for the cost of utility expansion and improvement to the road serving the place! Meanwhile the rest of us in the city have to pay for their services from a city budget already in crisis (so they say). I won't even mention the cost to the school district which in MO is paid greatly by local taxes unless your district is extremely poor (read St. Louis city, Kansas City or "rock, tree, dirt, cotton, pig" farming areas).

While I understand it IS the role of the city to provide much of the utility improvement to new development, it is only cost effective when done sensibly! What they REALLY want is a subsidy for the "professional types" who will live there and WHO CAN BEST AFFORD TO PAY ANYWAY!!! All it will do is put further stress on the valuation of older commercial property already considered nearly worthless to many of the local appraisers. Of course this new development is in great proximity to the explosive mass merchandise development and I suspect that should I truly research the development companies' "roots" will find that it is greatly endowed with money from the very developer who has done all that commercial building and Jerrymandered a subsidized "enterprize zone" over the objection of the city!

As for me, I enjoy my home with sidewalks, to-the-door mail delivery, within walking distance of our three businesses, a block from the post office for my "real" work as small business in a small town is rough, walking distance for groceries, general supplies, building/plumbing materials, non-chain restaurants, etc.--everything BUT Wal-Mart and "big boxes"--aw pity.

Sorry for the Sunday a.m. rant--have a devil of a cold (or something) that has my normally abundant snot cycle in hyperdrive. Glad I'm young and strong as think I'd die from pneumonia were I old and unable to cough the crap out.

hot_rod

The oil companies

really don't want you to know the true story. If they project dwindling supplies, consumers may decide to conserve and buy fuel efficient products. BUT then the energy companies risk selling less product, profits to the ENRON execs types would be at risk!

Both off shore and inland drilling is going much deeper and out to sea greater distances to hit "black gold" lots of old "faithful" holes drying up. Figures are out there. Takes a little digging and reading between the lines to get close to the truth. Peterolum mags write about this often. But I would suggest www.rmi.org for a more unbiased opinion.

hot rod

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

This weird \"cold\"

Heard from a friend of a friend who has it (and asthma). He had to go to Dr. with acute asthma attack. Was told it is an "acute respiratory virus" that is going around...

It's NOT killing people, but sure sounds familiar.

Starts RAPIDLY in the chest with dry, hacking painful cough and low-grade fever that spikes repeatedly. Brings on difficulty in breathing in waves and produces huge volume of thick phlegm in the head. Mine is a week old now but on the wane I think--mainly left coughing myself dizzy/sore removing the junk in my lungs. I "force-marched" myself for about 5 miles on the worst night. Quite different than anything I've had. Seems contagious as nearly everyone who has been in close contact with me either had, has or is getting it. Maybe it's a mutant strain (or even source) of the "big one" that will confer immunity...

Jackchips

Interesting

concept, Hot Rod. Being a contrarian helps raise the question-why would they not want us to know?

The two times in recent memory (ok, for my age the 70's is still recent) when it was thought oil was being depleted, there were long lines and Oil Conglomerates made huge profits. It would seem that the way to generate those profits again would be to "leak" the fact that we were again running out.

I may add to my shares of Haliburton. :-)

[Deleted User]

It's...

not big enoough yet, but can and will be. We get a couple of jobs a year requesting quotes. A commercial energy efficient apartment house being constructed to LEEDS standards is going to do a DHW system on a 14 plex that were doing.

When it does happen, we as an industry will be standing here, ready to go. Been there, done that, can do it again if need be.

ME