CSST ALERT !!

George_10

Stainless steel is a unique metal! Stainless contains chromium and chromium is an active element and can passivate readily after exposure to air, and this passive film is stable in many enviroments. The corrosion resistance of stainless steels is dependent on the stability of this passive film. Anything that comes into contact with this film and dissolves it or removes it will cause corrosion.

There are chemistries available that will protect stainless and I will look into the products used for leak detection and see if anything is available that wont remove the passivating film.

Scott

ScottMP

Sorry to sound an Alarm but...

This has a few us in my area quite concerned.

There has a been a failure of Corrogated Stainless Steel Tubing in our area. One was a hole in the pipe for a new installation. Is was in the middle of a long run and was brand new. The only way it was found was by bring the preasure up to 100 and waiting for the yellow jacket to bubble.

More concerning, is a piece of tubing that had pinholes about a foot away from a fitting. It was in for awhile (sorry don't know excatly), and the claim is that using soapy water to test is the culprit. Soapy Water ??? Dosn't soapy water go down a S.S. kitchen sink ?? This is the claim from a manufactures rep. This is being tested at the moment.

Do ANY of the wallies know anything about this ??

Some of us have alot of this tubing installed.

Scott



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Dale

Soapy water

Stainless sounds tough but some soaps contain clorine or ammonia which will eat right through it. Hot Rod had a post last year where mason cleaning acid got it. Lennox pulse installs years ago used a little stainless connector that got lots of problems from soap testing. Pays to buy the refrigerant leak lock soap.

Dale

Forgot obvious question

Scott, what brand of CSST are you finding problems with?

Mad Dog

Sorry for your troubles Chowdahead, but

this is what I'm talkin' about with all these new materials. The reps promise the world: "This stuff is BETTER than the old stuff...it will last FOREVER!!!!>' I've seen pvc that's in for 30 years that's falling apart. I am very cautious about the "new' stuff - especially inside houses and buildings. Quality and durability beat speed and low cost over the long run...Let's not even get into that lack of craftsmanship. Black steel on gas - properly done lasts a century at least. Hop you figure out the problem. Mad Dog

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Heatermon

What brand was it

and I too am a little leary of stainless steel for our plumbing. We have also seen what solder flux can do the material. We had an exposed stainless steel gas line that a small amount of flux dripped onto, less than a month later it had eaten a hole through the line. Scared us unough that we won't leave any ss unwraped and are using alot more hard pipe again. Let's keep looking into this until we find the answers.

Heatermon

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chuck shaw

this was addressed

at the meeting of the South Shore Plumbing and Gas Inspectors, a few months ago. I cant remember all the details, but yes Scott, the soap can cause leaks. Ask your supply house, where you get it to get you the newest edition of the installation manual. It explains the chemestry in it.

Chuck

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Cosmo

ARRGH

Looks like I am going back to a few jobs ASAP. I alsways used soap to test. This has me scared. The other thing that has always bothered me w/ corrugated stainless gas line is this, tubing installed to a piece of equipment that vibrates, or even secured to something that vibrates. Over the yaers would this eventually start to work-harden the stainless steel and make it more brittle? OIVEH!

Mike Kraft

I gotta say.........

I'm glad I'm not feeling your pain.I'm still screwing my gas pipe.That stuff never struck me as a safe way.I hope this is'nt a nightmare coming.Mr.Scott Start using that Amigo 2 more;).

cheese

ScottMP

Cheese

Its looking more and more like a good investment.

Mass is pretty strict with its codes and I believe we are the last to try alot of stuff. My question is has anyone else had or heard of this problem ?

Chuck, the last I heard was the board was testing this and it was being done by a lab.

Cosmo, what about the flex gas applaince connectors, we use them on install where vibration is a problem. So far no concerns on that.

I think the jury is still out on this.

Again I ask the question .. Do'snt soapy water go down a stainless steel sink ? What about commercial kitchens ?

Scott

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TBK1

\"GASTITE\" CSST

just completed the training and certification program for Gastite, new manual says "The protective coating should be kept in place as much as possible to protect the tubing from corrosive threats.Contact with chemicals containing chlorides must be followed by a thorough rinse and wipe dry. This includes fluxes used to soldier copper tubing and acid based cleaners used to wash masonry". We were "TOLD" by the trainer / rep , as long as we kept the coating intact and installed at the fittings correctly there were no problems with this.
There is also a web site @ www.gastite.com and 800-662-0208 for questions and engineering/tech suport!

ScottMP

Here's an Update

I just got off the phone with my local inspector who was on the site of the job with the corroded tubing.

1) This tubing was installed for about 3 years before a problem showed up

2) At this point I will not name the manufacture untill results come back, BUT, (suprise) thier first response was the "Plumber put something on the pipe ".

3) Grade of S.S. used is 304 which is supposedly a lighter grade than a S.S. sink.

4) The tubing has been sent to M.I.T. for testing and as soon as I learn the results I will post it.

5) There will be a specail public meeting of CSST installer and the State of Mass Board of Inpectors, which I will DEFINATLY be going to.

Nows heres my next question. What about flex applaince connectors. These have been around for years and those of you who are uncomfortable with the CSST , MUST have used these connectors. Allmost all of these have been tested with soapy water with out failure. ??????

Scott

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Mike Kraft

Good Point!

I always connect my appliances with the same stuff.Always have used flex connectors.Hard piping some appliances are doable but others would appear to have some real physical/mechanical challenges.How do you hard core gasmen connect your ranges(built -in) etc.As I'm typing I am seeing what can be done........looks as though the price for gas work will be going up again.

cheese

Mad Dog

I'm with you cheese.............................................

Old school rules the day!!!!!!!!! Mad Dog

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heatboy

Have you ever seen a ..............

....new boiler with a hole in the casting? Did you stop selling CI boilers?

....a roll of PEX with a defect from the factory? Did you stop selling PEX?

....Heatway disaster? They still make rubber hose, don't they?

How many millions of feet of CSST is on the market?

Let's not let the tail wag the dog. I'll wait to hear Paul Harvey's "The Rest of the Story", before I make any changes. An overwhelming majority of issues that arise with equipment of any type is due to installation errors. I sure have made my share of the years!

hb





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John Abbott

Well said

The sky is not falling.

John

B. Tice

Flex tubing

My only concern on the csst is that they say that flexible gas connectors should be replaced every 5 years. Where does that leave csst systems? I just saw a water heater today that had a label on the flex connector,"replace every 5 years" ......

ScottMP

True , true

And maybe its my fault. This story is spreading like wild fire in my area and I was trying to see if this was happening anywhere else. It appears that may not be the case.

I have not had ONE OTHER contractor come forward and say that he has had a problem. ANYBODY ??

How many hits does Dan say this site takes, everyday ?

This is one isolated failure, that has not had results from testing come back yet.

I have miles of Trac pipe out there with NO PROBLEMS.


MY HOUSE has Trac pipe.

Scott

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Mike Kraft

chicken little

Point taken.But I remain conservative with this.I never bit on the SS gas piping.Different strokes I guess.I'm not condeming it.But I will watch from the balcony:)

cheese

Richard Miller_2

what about

all the SS piping in swimming pool piping?

chuck shaw

Came up again in a big way at SSPGIA

Major concerns, but no one wants to go on record, because it said in two of the six (all we had) installation manuals that you could not use just "any soap" to soap test. Had to be free of corosive compounds. So...it was in the instructions all along, just got to read them better.

Chuck

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ScottMP

Chuck

How many failures have you seen ??

How many reported in your area ??

I think this is a non-issuie.

I have yet to here of anyone on this site coming forward with a problem.

Massachusettes will have a public forum for any interested plumbers on June 19th to discuss this. ANY one interested should show up.

Scott

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chuck shaw

Scott

I dont know if it is a "non-issue" ask the people who own the house. It is listed in the instruction books. So the manufactures thought it enough of an issue to print it. If nothing else, it will make people aware of reading instruction books. The tubing in question is now at MIT being tested. Also, the June 19th meeting/hearing has been posponed with no new date set as of yet.

Chuck

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Dale

The main problem

We've put in lots of csst and the main problem we have is noise. Despite what Corbin and the csst advocates say this is an issue. Csst started out pushing a 1 1/2 pound pressure drop to keep the sizes small and the install cheaper, now they say a 1 pound drop. The Japanese engineer from tagaki said " Oh the pipe horn effect" and they should know. As for corrosion we have had a few as welll as a lightning burn through in an attic where the csst was touching a piece of bonded steel duct. And now with many many brands with alll similiar but different connectors fixing the stuff is a headache. Like most things no magic bullet.