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Direct Vent or Standard Chimney Route?

LongTownFellow
LongTownFellow Member Posts: 14
The insurance company (either yours or the gas company's) will pay for damage from a gas explosion, but not for costs related to spilled oil, unless you have extra coverage.

Gas explosions are extremely rare, but always make the news. Oil spills, however, happen every day, but because they don't make for good TV pictures, never get mentioned in the press. The fact that 200 gallons of spilled oil in some homeowners basement doesn't make the news doesn't make that occurance any less tragic or stressful to the people it happens to.

I was just hoping that some of the oil folks here would recount some of the oil spill stories that they have had to deal with, what the governmental regulatory process was like, how much it ultimately cost, and who paid for it.

Comments

  • Bill Lattanzi
    Bill Lattanzi Member Posts: 6
    Direct Vent or Chimney Route?

    We're moving into an old two-family with asbestos snowmen oil burners and steam heat. We want to convert to gas and use direct vent hi-efficiency boilers and do away with the chimney, for space and to save the cost of lining it.
    What's the downside of direct vent? Noise? How noisy? Expense? Tricky to install and maintain? Will an indirect water heater work with it? What say you, experts? Thanks!
  • John@Reliable_2
    John@Reliable_2 Member Posts: 104
    Why do you want to change?

    From oil to gas? Here in the Boston area oil has been cheaper than gas for almost ever! The pubic has listened to all the gas companys marketing and not the facts! You might want to look at the new oil heat equipment today, in fact I read that the EPA said that new oil burners today are cleaner than gas.The other draw back I think about gas is service,if you have a problem with oil thier is 50 other companys ready to help you and being a oil company we know this and will try whatever to keep you as a customer, the gas company is the only game in town. As far as power vent vs chimney vent I would try to stay with a chimney. I have seen to many service problems and costly parts on alot of the high efficiency units those costs could wipe out any savings.Check out this website for more information http://www.oilheatamerica.com John@Reliable
  • Bill Lattanzi
    Bill Lattanzi Member Posts: 6
    gas oil/vent/no vent

    Thanks for the info, I will look into it, I am in the Boston area.... but are there any opinions from dis-interested parties?
  • chuck shaw
    chuck shaw Member Posts: 584
    you are on a web site

    dedicated to heating. We are all interested parties. This is what we do for work.

    Having said that, I agree with John, oil is the way to go. I will install natural gas for anyone that asks, but I always take the time to explain the differances. And tell them to compare pricing for themselfs. A properly installed steam system is the key. You can have an efficient boiler, but if the system is installed incorrectly, it will cost you money. Dont be sucked in by a gas company "free boiler" anyone who has gas in their home pays for that "free" boiler. Oil gives you options, with gas, you have a pipe line to a bill. Remember, General Motors is not in the buisness of making cars, they are in the buisness of making money.

    JMO

    Chuck Shaw

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  • John@Reliable_2
    John@Reliable_2 Member Posts: 104
    Hey chuck!

    Can I use that "pipe line to a bill" line I ready like that! Got to go now theres a big bright something in the sky outside here in middleboro, maybe you can see it too!John@Reliable
  • Dale
    Dale Member Posts: 1,317
    Direct vent

    This increases the effeciency the best with hot water and not steam. Steam can be nicely direct vented but at not much effeciency gain, and none compared to a steam boiler with a vent damper - gas choice only. Oil can be direct vented but the place the vent exits will be very hot and perhaps show some soot. As to cost I would check for the average cost of a therm of gas compared to the same heat value with oil. Oil requires more frequent maintenance, if you have equipment faithfully checked once per year this will be only a bil less with gas but this too can be compared with a few phone calls.
  • Bill Lattanzi
    Bill Lattanzi Member Posts: 6
    gas oil, vent vs chimney

    Thanks, all. I especially appreciate the Dale's detail, and where to look for evidence - finding my way past the sales talk is why I'm here... and we're all in the business of making money (and trying to keep costs down, and hand a better world down to our kids) it always seems about a wash to me on oil vs. gas.. except more of the natural gas supply is American; more of the oil supply is imported... that's my understanding, so, long term I think gas is a plus. The dirt factor counts for us, too. We're hoping to eliminate the chimney in the big renovation we're starting on, in quest of more space, so we're still leaning toward the direct vent. Any comments on the Noise factor? I've heard that the fan/motor that vents out the wall/window packs a wallop... louder than a dryer... will it drive us crazy? do you direct vent customers complain?
  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928
    Here in the middle of the country...

    ...where natural gas (where available) USED to be the ONLY economic choice for heating our natural gas rate has SKYROCKETED and we now pay among (if not the) highest rates in the country!

    Big time non-historic uses on both coasts--electric generation in the West and the new pipeline to the East--plus the Enron scandal seem to be the culprits.

    I would sincerely be VERY wary for big increases in natural gas rates in the East once customers are "hooked" and at the mercy of a SINGLE supplier.
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
    there

    is a difference between "direct" venting and "power" venting with oil. Burnham, Dunkirk, and Peerless make direct vent oil boilers..I've had good luck with the Burnham LE series. In this case, the burner itself provides the "boost" to get the exhaust out of the house. The ones I've installed have been quieter than a conventional boiler-in and out of the house. I would avoid power venting at all costs-the vent motors are prone to failure, and when they do fail, you are out of heat until a new motor is located-and that won't be the night it goes down! They make noise to start with, and over time soot/ash builds up on the vanes leading to vibration and motor bearing failure. I can attest to at least 5 or six clients that had their power venters replaced with chimneys due to reliablity, noise and vibration issues. Seemed like a good idea when new, but...

    If you go with gas, direct vent is a sweet way to go. Munchkin, Veissmann and others make virtually silent boilers that can direct vent outside with PVC piping.

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  • Scott Toenniessen_2
    Scott Toenniessen_2 Member Posts: 14
    Gas to Oil

    I live 30 minutes south of Boston and I'm seriously considering switching back to oil. My house was converted to gas about 5 years ago - I've owned it for 3. My boiler is a newer oil boiler with a gas company rental burner on it. I figure my fuel would have been at least 15% cheaper last winter plus I'd save the $15 a month burner rental. Next winter will probably be worse - all these new gas power plants are causing somewhat of a shortage of gas and gas distribution capacity in the US so the spread will only increase.

    I also have steam and have used the advice here to fine tune it. We love it so you may want to think long and hard about spending big bugs to rip it out and convert to hot water. Can't beat the old radiators - we keep our thermostat pretty low (never above 65) and the radiant affect of the cast iron keeps us toasty warm
  • John@Reliable_2
    John@Reliable_2 Member Posts: 104
    Bill, the noise can be a factor

    but with proper design it can be minimized.The mounting supports must be installed just right so you don't hear or feel it on the floor. You must also have discharge outside in just the right place to avoid odors on a deck,patio or coming in a window. Both gas and oil release combustion by-products ie: they both will have a odor. All of these factors I think will limit your chooses as most direct boilers are steel and for hot forced water and not steam.P.S. while most of us here are technicians, installers etc. we are all salesman one way or the other. John@Reliable
  • John@Reliable_2
    John@Reliable_2 Member Posts: 104
    Scott, must be around the \"shoe city\"

    John@Reliable
  • Bill Lattanzi
    Bill Lattanzi Member Posts: 6
    sticking with steam,

    I'm totally persuaded on that front. Don't want to rip out a system that's been there working great since 1915... survived the conversion to oil in 1935 - the original inspection sticker's still there. We've also had steam for years, no breakdowns, good warmth... had forced hot air once and hated it And that's so useful to hear the nitty-gritty about smell, cost, and the breakdown of the fans etc. on the steam/direct vent. And good to know with good installation, it is possible to get it to work right and quiet. That no heat for a while if it breaks argument is powerful. Prices: yeah, there was a moment there two years ago when oil prices spiked, and gas was cheaper, and then gas went sky high.... because they could get away with it, I guess. who knows what the future holds... wouldn't new gas plants increase the supply and drop the price? I don't get that. So if we stick with the chimney, then we have to reline it for 3-4K, and work the reno around it... I guess there's no choice without a downside. Thanks for the an incredibly helpful web site... this info is hard to come by at the consumer spots.
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
    steam, eh?

    the DV boilers I know of aren't steam, and I don't think anyone makes an animal like that..

    Looks like a power vent is in your future then, unless you pony up for a chimney. If you gotta power vent, then Tjerlund would be my choice over Fields. Tjerlund's motor is located inside the house, and seems to hold up better.

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  • I'll stay out

    of the "Gas" vs. "Oil" debate that is going on here tonight, but I would like to state that Burnham does indeed manufacture a Natural Gas Power Vented Steam boiler. It is the INPV series boiler and is available upon special order through any Burnham distributor and/or installer. It does require combustion air from within the room where it is to be installed. Induced draft fan is built into the jacket and canopy housing and is very quiet. Hope this helps.

    Glenn Stanton

    Burnham Hydronics
  • Bill Lattanzi
    Bill Lattanzi Member Posts: 6
    didn't know about that

    Thanks for the Burnham info. We have two burnhams in our present two family and they've been great. My very experienced plumber/installer also warned about the noise etc troubles, but he had not heard of the built-in and was also talking power vent. This sounds like a solution to me.
    Two questions: does "combustion air" just mean it sucks air out the basement? Will that be like a fireplace sucking oxygen? and forgive me, but does "hydronics" mean any water based heating system, or just steam? or just hot water?
    ever learning,
    Bill
  • Bill

    Glad to hear that you have had good dependability with your Burnham products. Yes, it does mean that the boiler will be using air from the basement for it's combustion and drafting process. I spelled this out only to dispel any misunderstandings that may arise between Power Vent and Direct Vent. Direct vent boilers get their combustion air directly from the outside. Yes an indirect may be used with this boiler and we provide tappings to do so. Hydronics means pretty much any system whereby a fluid (water) is circulated through pipes and heating output devices.

    Glenn
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
    thanks Glenn

    for stepping in..I completely forgot about that model-I had oil on the brain:)

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  • stick with oil and chimney

    i have an oil boiler and a gas boiler, and i run the oil it's a lot cheaper. keep the chimney it works 365 days a year. my power venter broke twice in 8 years. my biggest concern is the carbon monoxide blowing back in an open window. i changed a customers mind about power venters one time by sending them this picture. bob
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  • LongTownFellow
    LongTownFellow Member Posts: 14
    Oil Spills?

    Anyone here have any direct experience with an oil spill, say if your oil company overfills a basement tank and it pops, releasing 250 gallons of oil into a basement with a dirt floor?
  • PJO_2
    PJO_2 Member Posts: 36
    If you start...

    a new thread it would be more effective.

    May I add that I hope it's getting (or got) some quick attention...especially if you have a well nearby, because one drop of oil pollutes more than a gallon of water and 250 gallons is a lot of drops. Sounds like a lot of buckets of dirt out of the basement.

    Take Care, PJO
  • LongTownFellow
    LongTownFellow Member Posts: 14
    Oil spill costs

    I am hoping to bring up an issue that hasn't yet been covered in this very informative thread. The cost of cleaning up spilled oil needs to be factored into the cost equation when objectively comparing the costs of oil vs. gas. Almost all home owners insurance policies specifically exclude costs associated with the clean up of spilled oil that occurs on the insured's property, such as to a basement. My understanding is that oil spill cleanup is very expensive, and I was wondering if any of the folks who run businesses have had to deal with these sorts of situations and how much it cost them. Are separate insurance policies available to cover these sorts of losses, and how much does such a policy cost? Thankx.
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
    I

    don't think that spill costs can be factored in. How bad? how much? Degree of containment?

    Might as well factor in explosion replacement costs if gas goes awry..See where I'm going with this?

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  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
    right.

    My point is about the predictibilty of these disasters. How do you? Neither one is good. I would be a little cautious about stating oil spills happen every day, if you are implying that homeowner's tanks dump their contents on a regular basis:)

    I have seen all sorts of stuff in my years in the oil biz and as HAZMAT certified. From return lines broken in the ground to indooor tank leaks. From improper "abandonment" of UST's to jumped out safety controls on burners that pumped oil into the firebox until the tank was dry. Some of these were handled on a DEP level, some went to the EPA..the remediation costs can be all over the board depending on the severity of the leak/spill.

    Having said that,I don't want to give oil a bad name. In most of these cases, the accident didn't "just happen". Neglect, improper installation, and ignorance usually is to blame.

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  • LongTownFellow
    LongTownFellow Member Posts: 14
    Thankx Bob.

    Of course nobody wants to give their product a bad name. That's all I wanted folks considering a decision (such as the original poster) to hear.

    In my state, there might be one or two residential gas explosiong per year. But substantial residential oil spills average about 500-600 per year, not including leaking UST removals. I just want to make people aware that oil carries a substantial financial risk due to spills; and occur at a frequency that is far greater than gas explosions.

    I work in the oil spill clean up industry and have seen oil spills destroy people financially. I recommend that EVERYONE with oil carry additional insurance to protect themselves from such occurances, should they be unfortuante enough to happen to them. It is heart breaking to see some homeowners loose all the equity in their homes because they can't afford to complete the clean-up of an oil spill.

    Also, I encourage all the folks servicing oil customers out there to please, Please, PLEASE strongly recommend to their customers that unprotected copper fuel feed lines burried in concrete slabs be removed from service and replaced with sleeved above-ground lines. Over time, the concrete eats away at the copper and they start to leak. There is almost no way to know you have a leak until it gets bad.
  • corey
    corey Member Posts: 45
    Direct/Chimney/Gas/Oil...

    I faced a similar situation, though without the complexities of steam. Chimney was toast, boiler done, now what?

    Despite the 'religious' oil vs. gas debate, there is a cost/benefit analysis to be considered.

    That chimney work is a steep cost barrier to overcome. $3-4k is some real money.

    The direct-vent options are simply better with gas.
    Oil may be the cheaper fuel in the long run, but $3-4k will buy a lot of fuel.

    I invested part of my own 'chimney savings' in better gas equipment, and kept the rest.

    For fun, consider the "Hawaii Factor":

    Would you rather sit comfortably at home while your new oil boiler chugs its stuff up your nice repaired chimney?

    --or

    Fret about the cost of gas while relaxing in your beach chair as you enjoy your $3k vacation in Hawaii.

    Well, ok, you may blow the $3k in higher gas costs over many many years, but you get the idea. Perhaps investing the savings would make for a better case, but not as much fun...
  • PJO_2
    PJO_2 Member Posts: 36
    You make it sound...

    as though you almost can't go with oil for direct vent. I respectfully disagree with that...while you may have more options with gas for direct venting, you can still go with oil - still save the $3-4k - still take the Hawaii vacation - AND save money in the long run.

    Yes, I suppose there is an increased chance of sooting the siding, etc. but if done right...well, you know. I have scrubbed the area above my vent once in five years, and that's not bad is it?

    I went with an oil-fired direct vent boiler (propane was the other choice) and don't regret it...except once/twice a year when the wind is a certain way and the windows are open...would have been the same w/ gas though (with a different odor).

    Take Care, PJO
  • Bill Lattanzi
    Bill Lattanzi Member Posts: 6
    Hawaii..

    never been, always wanted to go. Direct Vent, looking better all the time... Also, heard Mr. Greenspan on the radio today, saying Gas prices would be higher for the long term, due to increased demand, and no new supply.... things just have a way of staying complicated, don't they?
    thanks for all the great response, and keep it going..
    bill
  • I think

    that Patrick is referring to a hot water direct vent boiler Bob. As far as I am aware, there is no oil-fired direct vent steam boiler on the market, but I could be mistaken!

    Glenn
  • Jackchips
    Jackchips Member Posts: 344
    \"Why don't

    they Glenn?" Said the novice to the Pro.

    Thanks for your advice on the direct vent Burnham I just installed. It's working great.
  • PJO_2
    PJO_2 Member Posts: 36
    DOH!

    Sorry guys...got too involved in the vent/oil/gas and forgot it was a steam system. I do have a hot water boiler - not steam. I apologize for the confusion.

    For the record Bob, I have a Dunkirk/Ultimate PFO-4T...0.75 gpm nozzle that has about fifteen feet of 8" vent pipe.

    Take Care, PJO
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
    yes

    Glenn, I knew PJO had a direct vent hot water set-up from a thread he posted on a while back. about it's performance-might have been the great "2000 dollar tip" thing..I just couldn't remember what he said the boiler was:)

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  • chimneys only

    no direct vents, no power vents. my power vented oil boiler requires that i close all the windows on the vent side of the house, but sometimes the wind still carries it around either side. it burns pretty clean but it still smells like diesel. check out the picture to see what happens when your nozzle clogs up. with gas, isn't anyone concerned about carbon monoxide blowing back in the house through an open window? bob
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