Condensing boilers

Ted_5 · May 2003

rated. What is the AFUE? What does the in side look like?

Kevin_10 · May 2003

Condensing boilers

Munchkin, Viessman Vitodens, and Weil McLain's Ultra- Are there any significant differencesin these boilers They will be heating approximately 3,000 sq. ft of radiant tubes in concrete along with a 54 gallon indirect hot water system. What are your preferences?

Michael B · May 2003

what a loaded question...

I can only speak for myself and my experience(s). I have sold over 30 Vitodens and installed 2 myself (including my own house)(installation pictures to follow). The Vitodens has it all in one box...condensing, modulating, wall hung, domestic hot water production kit, direct concentric pipe, silent, 316 stainless steel heat exchanger, matrix (not the movie) state of the art burner(think matrix the movie). What really sold it for me is the idea that I can have boiler, domestic hot water, complete system control from one comany(Viessmann). Yes it is more money, yes it is worth more. You do get what you pay for.

Sincerely,

Michael Bleier
Able Distributors
www.abledistributors.com
"The Supplier That Works With You"

Steve Ebels · May 2003

We just fired up

Vitodens number 4 today. We have also installed some Munchkins. The Munchie does what it does and the Vito does what it does. If that makes any sense....... They are both condensing type pieces of equipment, both will thrive in low temp applications, both modulate the burner but that's about where the similarities end.

I could type the rest of the evening about the Viessmann, gushing about the Matrix burner. (Measured 3 ppm CO on the one fired up today at low fire, 18 ppm at max.) I've not seen any of the Munchkins we've installed below 50.

The 316ti grade stainless heat exchanger in the Vito should be in a gallery displayed as art.

The control board has adaptive logic that allows it to "learn" what is needed for optimum combustion and efficiency. The exhaust gas runs within 5-10 degrees of return water temp. (Todays test revealed 114* with a water temp of 108* on the return. Full outdoor reset with adjustable curve and temp shift, domestic hot water production and more all off the same control..........

Like I said, I could go on......

and on........

and on...........

There will be a Vitodens in my house in the very near future if that means anything.

Mason · May 2003

I am with Steve

I agree with Steve. The Vitodens is truly a work of art. I had a lady stop me the other night an tell me that the owner of the home that got out last Vitodens install actually took her by the hand down into his basement to show here. Now I think that alone says it all!!

Mason

Mark Hunt · May 2003

I have a customer

that does the same thing to ALL of his visitors. He has a Munchkin boiler in his basement and he LOVES it!! We do too!

The wall hung versions will be available soon and the 399 unit which can modulate between 399,000 and 80,000 is also due to make it's debut!

The "Vision" control makes this THE perfect boiler IMHO.

Mark H

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

heatboy · May 2003

Apples, Oranges, Avacados and Grapes.

What do they all have in common? Correct, they are all fruit, but that is where the similarities end. The boilers you mentioned, plus the Monitor, are all TRUE condensing boilers, but that is where the similarities end. Each one has it's own place onthe boiler ladder. Find a contractor who knows about condensing technology and that you trust, then follow his recommendations.

Merck? Are you from Hunterdon County, NJ, by chance?

hb

I guess my vote would be for Viessmann ;-)

Mark Hunt · May 2003

Now that

is a gem of truth HB.

Thanks for that post!

Mark H

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Kevin_10 · May 2003

I thought I had a contractor I could trust less than a year ago and it was a disaster. My systems needs to be totally revamped. This is why I am trying to find as much info as I can so I don't make the same mistake twice. Other than these boilers look good, are there any significant differences betweeen them? Thansk in advance for your help.

Mark Hunt · May 2003

Kevin

I tell my customers this.

"Once that boiler leaves the asembly line, it is at the mercy of the installer. It doesn't matter WHO made it! It MATTERS WHO installs it!"

Wish I was closer!

Mark H

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Kevin_10 · May 2003

So true.

Steve Ebels · May 2003

System Efficiency

The best boiler in the world turns into a piece of dung if it's installed wrong. Conversely, a standard old cast iron 80% eff. unit in the hands of a master can be a thing of beauty and wonderfully efficient.

A good installer will take into account ALL aspects of a system. He will not hang his hat on merely the AFUE of the appliance. A good system for your house may or may not be a good system for the neighbors house. Which means system design is partly art and partly science.

Here's an example of looking at the total system. We are just finishing a job on a 4,800 sq.ft home. We bid against 2 forced air guys and another boiler guy. The forced air guys both proposed dual furnaces totaling 200K btu's. Then a 75 gl water heat would have had to have been added on top of that. The boiler guy proposed a 9 zone pump system with a standard 80-83% boiler driving it. In each of those scenarios, what do you think the electrical consumption would be? Now add maintenance on top of that.

What wound up in the house was a Vitodens running at 90%+ in almost any circumstance, 700 sq. ft. of heated floor with the balance of the home heated by panel radiators. We gave the HO individual control for each of the rooms in the house with one pump and 15 TRV's. The max firing rate for the Vito is 124k btu's. Compare that to the dual furnace fiasco, plus we're using one piece of equipment for the heat and the hot water production. A total amp draw for the system of 1.5 amps vs probably 10 to 15 with the methods proposed by the other contractors.

So I rest my case. Despite strong preferences held by different folks here as far as brand of equipment goes, it still boils down to how good is the guy swinging the wrenches.

Ted_5 · May 2003

My vote is Vitodens

that boiler has more options on that built in control,then
you can get in any add on stand alone control. The biggest
differance between Vitodens and the others is the construction of the heat exchanger. Go for the Vitodens!

Ted

Mike T., Swampeast MO · May 2003

Exhaust Temp

Just curious... Where did you measure the exhaust temp? 3ppm CO & exhaust 6° above incoming water is downright amazing.

Steve Ebels · May 2003

Typical Viessmann

They supply a port for testing with a threaded plug for intake and exhaust air in the first piece of vent pipe right on the top of the HX. Not much amazes me about Viesmann anymore. By that I mean I've come to expect excellence in any area from them. And, yes, those are amazing numbers but thhe Testo don't lie. I even used two different analyzers to confirm what I was seeing.

Mike T., Swampeast MO · May 2003

One more question

Every measure the ph of the condensate?

Steve Ebels · May 2003

That happens today

We'll finish hanging the last two rads, insulate the underfloor piping, dial in the gas pressure, program the setpoints and times on the control for heating and DHW......... and check the condensate. Try to have answers for you tonight Mikey. Maybe even have a pic or two.

Ted_5 · May 2003

You have to look inside

the boilers to see what they are made of. Viessmann is very
proud of the Vitodens, inside and out. If you look at any
of there books they allways show cut-a-ways so you can see
what they are made of! Do the others? If not, I cut the M
boiler apart and took some pictures. I will try to attach

Ted_5 · May 2003

More pics

Matt Connolly · May 2003

Add one more to your list;;

The Monitor MZ line has proven itself for over 23 years in the field. Not as technically advanced as the Vitodens but clearly a high quality unit with an unmatched track record. Full condensing, wall mounted, with a built in control for you domestic hot water tank.
Look at all of them, and make sure you get a good installer!
Go to WWW.MZBOILER.COM and check it out. We also have a list of experienced installers if you need one.

Matt

Condensing boilers

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