Another old timer bites the dust

Tom_10 · May 2003

from the guys on this sight for some sort of clarification. Spoke to a rep. at my local supply house on the subject who looked at me like I had two heads. That wasnt very comforting. The rep. from Amtrol agreed that 18" min. is a fair rule of thumb that should be observed where possible. Couldn't account for effectiveness with less of an approach. Looks like I'll have some questions in Hershey this year, both for Amtrol and for spirotherm. I was fortunate enough to be schooled in Basement University, and my "professors" were all old timers. It was up to me to refine my methods. I made the mistake of not leaving 18" approach ONCE, and never did it again. It was this old timers way of installing, and that is what he wanted PERIOD. To him, there was no other way. Now, it has become my method and it is being called into question. It seems like such an inconsequential subject, but now I'm intent on finding the answer. Nobody seems to agree one way or the other.I guess we can all thank Dan for this debate. I think it's what he intended to happen when he got this sight going way back when dirt was new. Thanks Dan.

oilwizard · April 2003

pancake boler replacement

Just sharing a boiler job we did, don't see many like this anymore.
Joe

Richard Miller_2 · May 2003

I think

you did someone a favor! Big time. While I thrill to see these grand old babies, it is good to see the safety and effiency that these lucky clients of yours will now enjoy.

Sweet job.

Dave Palmer_2 · May 2003

come..

to my area,we have plenty to share and we build them sideways, looks great.

Wayco Wayne · May 2003

Very nice

I love to see the blue babies in the basement. Say that three times fast. ;)WW

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oilwizard · May 2003

ANybody know how to get the wax off

I kept the gage and thermometer, only thing is they are covered with that wax stuff they spray on the pipes after the abstepos(sp) is removed. Would like to clean them up, looking for ideas.
Joe

Dave Palmer_2 · May 2003

warm...

it with a hair dryer?

Tom Meyer · May 2003

Ummm....

Are these "Before" or "After" photos? 8-)

Senior Designer/Trainer
Precision Hydronics Corporation
www.precisionhydronics.com

oilwizard · May 2003

Befor and After

The pancake looked like that at 8 in the morning, then it looked like the Buderus by 2.
Joe

Tom_10 · May 2003

just wondering

if there is a minimum (like 18" at least) approach piping to the air scoop for it to be completely effective. Aside from a micro-bubble resorber(like Spirovent or a Honeywell Sparco)I was always under that impression. In the pic. it doesn't appear to have that clearance. Am I mistaken? Just wondering.

oilwizard · May 2003

18\" no,

There is not 18",and to be honest, I have yet to see a difference. But the key is to pump away from the air scoop. Sometimes the 18" rule can not be obtained, but in most boilers I have seen that are under 18" don't have a problem. I use to buy the spirovents but lets face it, why spend 2.5 to 3 times the price for a spirovent when a regular air scoop will do.

Tom_10 · May 2003

WOW!

That goes counter to what both manufacturers AND pros on this sight have said. The reason I prefer spirovents is to eliminate that 18" minimum and also to give the customer a superior method of air elimination. Although, as you said, even when I did use standard air scoops, I never got any complaints either,but always allowed that 18" approach piping, so who knows what to believe. Is it just rhetoric on behalf of manufacturers to get you to buy the more expensive ( and as they profess more effective)product? I have ALWAYS pumped away from the TANK since it is installed at the spiro on the supply. It used to drive my old boss crazy. Was doing so LONG before it became as popular as it is now. Was putting LWCO's on hot water boilers long before THAT became the hot ticket(and code required) as well. Was always criticized by local plumbers for doing so ( they all said my method of installation was "overkill") but I stuck to my guns because I knew it was right. Anyhow, thats my justification for spending the extra on the Spiros (to avoid the 18" approach piping).Would like to hear what others have to say on this topic besides you and I. Would like to know how others deal with air elimination.

oilwizard · May 2003

I'm no talking 6

> That goes counter to what both manufacturers AND

> pros on this sight have said. The reason I prefer

> spirovents is to eliminate that 18" minimum and

> also to give the customer a superior method of

> air elimination. Although, as you said, even when

> I did use standard air scoops, I never got any

> complaints either,but always allowed that 18"

> approach piping, so who knows what to believe. Is

> it just rhetoric on behalf of manufacturers to

> get you to buy the more expensive ( and as they

> profess more effective)product? I have ALWAYS

> pumped away from the TANK since it is installed

> at the spiro on the supply. It used to drive my

> old boss crazy. Was doing so LONG before it

> became as popular as it is now. Was putting

> LWCO's on hot water boilers long before THAT

> became the hot ticket(and code required) as well.

> Was always criticized by local plumbers for doing

> so ( they all said my method of installation was

> "overkill") but I stuck to my guns because I knew

> it was right. Anyhow, thats my justification for

> spending the extra on the Spiros (to avoid the

> 18" approach piping).Would like to hear what

> others have to say on this topic besides you and

> I. Would like to know how others deal with air

> elimination.

oilwizard · May 2003

I'm no talking 6\"

from the elbow, when its all said and done its somewhere between 12"-14" to the center if the scoop. But Tom you bring up a good point. All were taught the 18" rule, but who dame up with this and how? No one has ever told me, have they you? Most things we do are done because that is the way it has always been done, yea, back when dinasours roamed the earth, but modern times has seen improvements all around. Mirco bubbles, come on. It comes down to a sales pitch, and from what I've been experiencing from some manufactorer reps in my area, they are all the same, just talk out of their **** to cover their butt, call them on something they said and they deny it all. You do what works for you and stick to it, I'll do what works for me and stick to that. Since the first of the year I've put in about 20 boilers, and yet to have to go back for an air problem, I've probably did about 50 last year with no air problems( I work for a large oil company and do the boiler installs). I'm sure others are going to point out that I am doing it wrong and that is fine, this is America, do what you want and say what you want, but it works for me.
Joe

Tom_10 · May 2003

I was thinking that

maybe I have been doing the wrong thing all this time. My intention is to try to and find out if I should be installing standard air scoops as well. I would LOVE to save some $$$. Again, the only thing thats really stopping me is that 18" approach. Usually I just dont have it to spare. I believe the reason for the 18" is to allow the air bubbles to collect and become more concentrated ( a funnel effect) for the scoop to be effective. That is what I've been told. If I don't need that 18", I'll take a lesson from you and go stock my shelf with standard scoops and 6" nipples. Maybe take a week on the beach with the cash I save (with the family of course)with full credit and thanks going to you. I try to do, not so much what works for me , but for my customers comfort. It would bother me to think of all those jobs I've done, before I began using Spirovents, where it was a hassle to get that 18" minimum, and all this time it wasn't even necessary. Hours lost I suppose. Anyhow, America the beautiful!!! The land of freedom of choice. Good luck in whatever you choose.

Richard Miller_2 · May 2003

So...

WHAT is the truth on this subject? I wonder how we can find out? Any independant testing been done?

todd s · May 2003

air scooping

I believe that the biggest factor is the system that its connected to. We do alot of replacement work and always pump away from the ponpc. Sometimes this means pumping right off the top of a boiler with no airscoop, we'll use the boiler as the scoop(works in a 2-3 zone raised ranch). We have no callbacks for air and I'm comfortable doing it this way. If there is alot of piping, large radiators, or monoflows I will make sure to do the 18" with a regular scoop to be on the safe side. I would use a microbubble type for radiant since they can be tough to purge. I have gotten many comments on how quiet the piping is after we're done. I love the way the air vent whistles when the pump starts running.

Steamhead · May 2003

Water Velocity thru the scoop

also makes a difference. Here's the setup on my Burnham V-14... 20 years young! Has a built-in air separator (the "Eliminaire") topped by a Hoffman #79. This system is a gravity conversion with almost no resistance in those huge old pipes. The B&G 100 circ that came with the boiler was way too big for this system, and the air separator worked, but not that well. Switching to a smaller Taco 005 not only improved the heat transfer in the boiler and radiators, but the air separator works better too!

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oilwizard · May 2003

Lets continue this

discussionn down at the round table part, and maybe we can get some more input on this.
Joe

Tom_10 · May 2003

Hey Steam,Is that to say...

that the #100 was moving the water(and air) too fast for the scoop to collect it effectively? That "eliminaire" looks like a relic(I love that stuff). Who made/makes that item? I wonder if you had the 18" approach and mounted the scoop straight instead of angle mount and used the #100 if it would have been more effective. Either way, I'm sure that by slowing down the flow w/ the 005 in that gravity conversion, that in itself would have helped the situation tremendously.

Another old timer bites the dust

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