Upgrading heating system-need some opinions

Joe_13

You might want to think about getting the air handler from an AC manufacturer so you know it will tie into their series of Condenser units. York is higher end and will probably cost more. How tall is the crawl space? You know you'll have to go down there to change filters. Make sure the old water heater is using at least a 30A 2 pole breaker to go to the future use of the AC compressor.

Scot Desort

I currently have a oil forced-air horizontal furnace in the crawl space of my ranch in Northern NJ. The furnace is a Heil and needs to be replaced. The ductwork is old and leaks everywhere. I am also looking to add A/C and possibly replace my current 20 year old electric hot water heater.

I have been searching for knowledgable contracts for many weeks now. One that I have found to be the most honest has proposed the following:

1. Remove existing furnace
2. Install new ductwork, properly sized, room by room for heating and cooling per Manual J
3. Install new Crown CT3 boiler in crawlspace
4. Install new Crown or SuperStor indirect water heater in crawl
5. Install new Crown air handler (need to have a air handler that runs on 110V) with hot water coil, horizontally in crawl, connect to new ductwork.
6. Install Amana 12SEER condenser

Originally, I had thought about going to all hydronic with baseboards, but it is simply too cost prohibitive. This solution gives me great hot water, and room to add-on other hydronic components like some radiant loops under the kitchen floor if I want, etc. I have no natural gas here. Some "gas" equipment contractors are trying to convince me that propane will not be more expensive than oil, even though it is price higher than oil in my region and has a 40% less BTU content than oil. I am not crazy about the idea of having 2 100 gallon propane tanks propped against the side of my house.

I have also posted a similar message in other places on the net, and I have been told I am crazy for thinking about installing a hydronic system in an unconditioned crawl space. Many have predicted earth-shattering tragedies such as freezing and rust, and some have moaned about accessibility for service, and more components to fail. Some have even commented that it sounds like this contractor is just trying to fatten his wallet, and that I'd be better off just getting a regular furnace, and explore other options for DHW like propane-fired tankless, etc.

All of my cold water pipes are in this crawl space, some without any insulating wrap. After this past winter in NJ which was very cold, I did not have a single frozen or burst pipe. I have presented all of these concerns to the contractor. He has countered every single one with a logical answer (antifreeze in the lines, choosing the Crown specifically because of it's low height and front-open burner door, etc).

What I am trying to do is think ahead and not just take the easy road out. The water heater is functioning now, but if I just replace the furnace and add A/C, and 3 years from now the water heater dies, I won't have as many options available to me as I would if I think about it now when I am gutting the entire mechnical system.

Am I "crazy" for thinking about this type of system? Does this type of system typical perform well?

TIA,

Scot

Tom M.

A couple thoughts

Scot,
this is not a bad way to go. I don't know the design of your crawl space but your equipment shouldn't rust any faster than in a comparable basement. Is the existing furnace rusted? Also, it should stay fairly warm with the boiler and hot water tank down there. I would advise insulating the perimeter and keeping the pipes away from the exterior walls as much as possible. Antifreeze can get expensive and needs to be maintained. The indirect will have a higher initial cost than other water heating options but your contractor is not offering it to you to line his pockets. This will be evident when you get your next electric bill. Go to this link and look at the piles of money at the bottom of page 5:

http://www.amtrol.com/website/content.nsf/0/C39E759CD45DBF0086256A380050AC73/$File/AMT 682_ClassicBM.pdf?OpenElement

Or just ask someone who has one. Your indirect will have comparable efficiency and will last a long time. Hope this helps.

Tom M.

Joe_13

No attic?

You might be better off putting an air handler in the attic for the hydronic heating and A/C coils since you're getting new duct work. Maybe use outdoor reset on the bolier with continuous circulation rather then anti-freeze, unless you're prone to loosing power for long periods. Is power an issue in the home? Without 220V how do plan to AC? The electric WH must be 220V. Replacing the electric WH will probably give you the power for the AC.

Scot Desort

Thanks for replying Tom.

Yes, it probably will stay warm down there. Contractor also said to think about actually placing a small register down there to throw some additional hot air into the space to help things out.

Insulating the crawl walls would be difficult at best.

The current furnace is 15 years old and there isn't a drop of rust on it. From the outside, it looks a lot newer than it actually is.

I know the indirect will defintely pay for itself. It's just the design of this system that presents these challenges in my particular house. I guess I am just looking for some additional opinions so that I don't feel like I am flushing the money down the toilet.

Thanks,

Scot

Scot Desort

Joe-

We had thought about placing the handler in the attic, but couldn't really find a good reason not to use the existing register locations. The attic is very big, but it would only move one component out of the crawl. Then I would have to either leave the "abandoned" floor registers where they are, or have some creative carpentry done to close the holes in the subfloor.

Our power is surprisingly stable here. I have only lost power twice in the 3 years I have been here.

Regarding the 220V. Yes, the plan is to use the existing 220V line for the *condenser*. The panel is full, therefore I cannot get a 2nd free 220V line for the air handler without upgrading the service. As I understand it, most air handlers are designed for use in a heat pump situation where there would be backup electric resistance heating coils installed, requiring 220V. We only found 2 that only use 110 --- Crown and Thermopride. The TP was so expensive, it didn't make sense to spend the extra money on just an air handler. If it was a true furnace with the legendary TP heat exchanger, it would be worth the extra bucks.

Thanks for your input

--
Scot

Boilerpro_3

An idea for back up

when installing the new air handler, have small electric heat elements installed. Should the boiler go down, the elements will help provide freeze protection. What your contractor is proposing sounds like a top notch solution. I recently did a similiar system where a boiler provided heat to a air handler with a modulating thermostat to control the hot water coil and a couple of baseboard zones and a fan unit in the garage to provide additional heating when needed. The home was a first class home with a first class mechanicals when it was built 50 years ago and it is today with its first new boiler, air handler and controls.

Boilerpro


Boilerpro

lisfjoe

You will still be getting hot air heat even if you use hot water coils in the ducts. Ducts and blowing air create drafts, dirt, mold, stratification of heat at the ceiling, etc. I don't think that many on this forum would argue against the benefits of hot water baseboard: more comfort, zone control, fuel savings, fewer drafts, lower thermostat settings and cleanliness, to name a few.

Yes, I work for a baseboard manufacturer but independent surveys indicate that of the people who have had hot water radiator or baseboard heat 88 percent wouldn't do without it. Spend the extra money, why skimp on your comfort? Besides, the extra cost to you will be returned to you in fuel savings over the next several years.

Joe

Scot Desort

Joe-

I am quite aware that I will still have hot air heat when this is all done. Unfortunately, because we are dealing with a crawl space, the labor involved in the piping for hydronic heat is something I absolutely cannot afford right now. The cost of the system in the hot air configuration alone is pushing the limits of my finances. I would love to put radiators in, but I cannot imagine how I could possibly afford it.

I will be getting a quote from another contractor to see how the pricing compares. But I fear it will not vary too much.

If anyone here knows a good contractor who services Morris County, NJ, and has fair pricing, I would love to hear from you.

Thanks,

Scot

Scot Desort

I would imagine that those electric heat elements would require a nice amount of power -- probably 220V. My current electrical panel is full. I only have enough 220V power for the condenser. Since the current furnace runs on 110V, I need an air handler that runs on 110V.

I will be getting at least one additional quote on a fully hydronic system. My biggest concern is finding a good contractor. It took me over 8 weeks to find this ONE. Getting one or 2 more quotes from other good contractors seems like an impossible feat. The price this contractor gave me for the hot air solution I described seems fair for what I am getting. His price on 100% hydronic, however, seems high to me and I have nothing to compare it to.

keep the ideas coming...

Thanks,

Scot

clammy

rheem

have you checked out rheem equiptment they carry 110 volt equipt.there units are quite small and avable in your area from north jersey myself good luck

Art Pittaway

Zone Control

Did your contractor discuss the option for zone dampers to various areas of the house? With a hydronic coil you can't overheat anything so actuated dampers and end switches with thermostats would give you control of heat to specific rooms or areas, cooler bedroom and warmer living room. Your putting in the duct, now is the time to add area control. It doesn't have to be one for each room but it can be a lot better than one thermostat for the whole house.
See www.invensysibs.com/erie for actuator and control info.

Eric

electric stuff

You could easily use the existing breaker or breaker space from the elec HWH and have a small sub feed panel. Newer breakers typically cheaper anyway. And you'll have extra breaker space always nice to have.

Brent_2

110v air handler

There are ways to get 220v for the air handler but you said you want a 110v ah since you have 110v there already. You can get a York N1AH air handler in 110v. You can not put electric heat in it though. I would be in favor of using a air handler, coil, and condensing unit from the same manufacturer. It doesn't really matter if the ah is different than the coil and CU but you might need a weird transition btw the ah and coil.

brent

Scot Desort

The crawl space where the equipment will be located is between 3 and 4 feet high. All equipment will be located within 5 feet of the entrance to the crawl. It's fairly easy to work in this area as it is the tallest space down there. Contractor installs AprilAire cleaners standard with all air handlers he installs.

The water heater is 220v 40Amp double pole. We would breaker it down the line at the exterior quick disconnect down to 25 or 30 Amps, whatever the condenser requires.

Amana's air handler was 220v. I don't think this contractor works with York, but I can ask. He called Crown and they did not see any problem using the Amana coil in the Crown air handler.

Thanks again...

Scot

Andy Morgan_2

Hydro Coil

If memory serves me correctly, First Company makes a 110V Hydrocoil, with a cooling coil in it as well as a heating coil for hot water. Very reasonably priced, very common in my area.

Andy Morgan

R. Morgan Mechanical, LLC