infloor heating systems?

Kevin R. Danielson

Not a yupper Approx 30 mi. south of the Mackinaw bridge

Kevin R. Danielson

Best in floor systems

Gentleman newbie to your site, I'am in the infinite stages of planning construction of a new house. I know that I will be definitely going with in floor. I'am a finish carpenter by trade working in high end houses, so I have a working knowledge of the variuos systems out there.
Most of the systems I have seen have a boiler, manifolds and sensors exterior to anticipate heating demand.

This house will be built in Northern Mi. approx. 6000-7000 sq.ft.with ICF forms from footings to eaves. I plan on living in house for next 20-25 yrs. Looking for a system that is virtually maintenance free, and most efficent unit currently on market.

Their are many qualified contractors in my area so this is really not a concern, but I would like to have more info. on types of equipment(ie: manufactors etc.),don't want to waste contrators time at this point, as stated earlier I'am just beginning to start developing thought process. Hope that information from professionals, on this forum will better prepare me when time comes to choose contractor we can get down to what I need (ie;time is money and I can certainly appreciate that being a trade myself).

The most recent house I've been working on has high pressure air seems pretty slick, although I'am wondering how does one introduce humidty to this system I believe that their is a potential problem with mold in this type of system with humidity, please correct me If I'am wrong.

Also interested in exploring geothermal but have no idea how this system interacts with boiler system or if this system stands alone, and whether it is adequate as system for my area.

Basically I figure if you professionals were doing your own house and you could design and build your own system which way would you do it. Willing to spend the money up front as I believe the reduced energy costs, overall comfort,and potential resale down the road will offset any cost up front.

Thanking you in advance
Sincerely
Kevin R, Danielson

Steve Ebels

Kevin

There are so many variables and types of systems that it's difficult to know where to start. I could type here for an hour and not cover half the options that are out there.

So, that being said, here's a few thoughts and questions.
Is the whole house going to be radiant, as in all low water temp heating? If so, then you should consider a boiler that will live happily at water temps from 85 to 120*. (Hint, this is best for maximum efficiency). A factor that has a huge bearing on what brand of boiler is what fuel are you going to burn. I wouldn't even begin to recommend equipment brands without knowing that.

Assuming that there is a basement, the best way to go is to just put in the tube and pour the concrete as usual. In the upper floor(s) you have a number of options. There are plates you can nail up under your floor that the tubing clips into. Commonly called underfloor heating here in N MI. You could design the floor and walls to accept an inch and a half of gypcrete and attach the tubing above the floor. There are advantages and disadvantages with this. It's wonderfully even heat but can present some real gnarly design problems if you have rooms with a lot of solar gain. There are suspended tube systems that work OK if you just want to do some floor warming and rely on something else for actually heating the space. Grooved panels that install between the subfloor and the hardwood/carpet/tile or whatever work great and offer the advantage of faster response to temp change. We've installed a lot of combination systems using radiant floor and panel radiators. This has some great features and benifits also. Basically, you have options available that are limited only by your imagination and the skill level of your contractor. I'm thinking that the grooved panel system might be to your liking because you could install nearly the whole system yourself and have a mechanic come in and just do the boiler room piping and set up the system.

See, here I go, typing for 10 minutes and hardly scratched the surface. Check out www.viessmann-us.com or www.buderus.net for info on two of the best in the boiler world. We install both and have exceptional results with either. Also check out www.stadlerviega.com for some good info on the grooved panels.

Good luck and have fun planning!!

Don_2

Icf home

Real efficent envelope.I had the chance to do one but back out for i did not have enough knowledge with this type of
envelope. But i did do some home work on it.
Make sure you look for a good system to introduce some fresh air into the house,not much of air exchange with this home. And yes humidty is a concern,so make sure the ac system is size properly..At one ton for every 1200 sq ft you
are looking at some small equipment.Also hear that the system are so small that they run cold and will freeze up so if you go with dx system look into staging your equipment.My understanding is to stay away from dx system all together,and go with a geo system with hydronic cooling.
Or better yet a dxgeo system with hydronic cooling.Since you are going with infloor heat then that looks to be the way to go.If you could share with us what type of floor covering you will have,then the pros here can point you and the right direction.
There a guy name Mark Ross who is real good with icf homes
at Architectural Residential Technolgies in ohio that can
Address all your concern.His # is 877-278-8802 and can give better info on the do and don't with this type of envelope

[Deleted User]

Hydronic ramblings...

This could get long winded:-) OKay, I'll try to keep it short and to the point like Steve did.

First off, maintenance free doesn't exist. The higher the efficiency, the higher the maintenance. Systems can be "almost virtually maintenance free", but NEVER maintenance free.

Secondly, If it were my house, I'd go with the panelized radiant floor like warmboard. You being a carpenter type would get along REAL well with this system. And from what I've seen, it works GREAT. HR Rohr has done a few of those systems. It leaves a lot of room for overcoming any resistance values that may be placed upon it. And it works well with solar, which brings me to my third suggestion...

Third suggestion,,, Using off shelf technology, build a massive concrete, insulated PEX storage unit, use solar to maintain it at whatever temperature you can, run a refrigerant powered (heat pump) waste heat recovery system at the end of the sanitation system and send that heat back into the system, use small heat pumps distributed through out the load to transfer the heat from the solar charged waste heat recovery system, and your utility bills will be next to nothing, and you CAN get humidity control too.

Fourthly (Is my ten minutes up??)Make darned sure about who you choose to do the system. Check them out thoroughly. Look not only at their new jobs, but ask to look at some old ones. You'll know when you find the "right" guy. Pay attention to detail. The devils in there:-) Think like you're going to marry the installer. You are executing a contract for life after all...

That would probably WIN the RPA's contest for two categories at once, most for least and unique categories.

Low waste boilers (highly efficient) DO require regular maintenance. I've seen the inside of a high efficiency condensing boiler and it DOES require maintenance. I'm going to start filtering the air and see if I can clean it up. I think even minute dust particles, when burned, become a white ash. It can be removed, and it should be regularly removed in order to keep the efficiency high. It's worth it to the environment. It would probably save 200 trees...or take 2 cars off the road...(political energy talk)

Got questions??

ME

PS. This solar furnace in France is capable of generating temperatures as high as 33,000 degrees celcius!

Now THATS hot! ME

Kevin R. Danielson

Steve Ebels more info

Thank you for follow up.

1. I am assuming fuel source will be LP due to fact I will be building in country

2. Iam familiar with the various plywood panels for pex but was leaning more so to lite crete for upper floors to have more thermal mass

3. floor coverings will be hardwood, tile and carpet

4. there will be considerable glass in house so solar gain very well could be issue, something I didn't realize was a issue

5. basement will be typical slab with dense foam along perimiter.
thanks again

Kevin R. Danielson

Reply

thanks mark
I'am familiar with the plywood systems that recieve the pex. I have even installed some for a general 2 years ago. Agree with you that their alot of sharks in the waters, heck I bid against them quite often and many times have fixed their mistakes. Fortunately in my trade fixing mistakes is usually cosmetic and not set in concrete. I do realize that maintenance free does not exist and that if is mechincal it will require maintenance, just trying to find a system that is not something that requires constant service. I make a living nailing wood and a occasional copper pipe when some goof ball plumber hides it in the wall right where I need to nail. Hopefully I can find a system that is fairly idiot proof.

thanks for your response and I'am sure that your not a goof ball cuz Iam sure you never had a trimmer shoot a piece of your copper.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

In a home of such a size in such a climate that you intend to occupy for such a long time and are willing to use and pay for quality components...

Some possible "DOs and DON'Ts":

DO: Design the system to operate at the lowest possible water temperature--this is done either with high mass (concrete, gyp-crete, etc.) or high conduction (HEAVY aluminum plates that intimately grip the tube). Copper tube in such a plate offers wonderful performance, BUT the engineering for such is a bit of a "grey area" and it's not the easiest/fastest installation method.

DO: Use proportional control as much as possible. Two-way proportional flow devices are considered highly reliable and eliminate many components known for problems/maintenance issues (many circulators, zone valves, etc.).

DO: Investigate alternative heating methods. Geothermal can and does work wonderfully, but the geology of your area determines much and finding an EXPERIENCED contractor is extremely critical. There are some very nice solar options as well, but again I wouldn't want to be part of someone's virgin job UNLESS I trusted them and the company supplying components greatly.

DO: Make use of proportionally-controlled panel radiators (or even new/old cast iron if you like "retro" and high radiation) in some/many areas. Unless you plan on keeping all of the home warm at all times, these will allow you to heat areas that have been set back MUCH more rapidly than with pure radiant floors. They also allow heat level (particularly bedrooms and other private spaces) to be rapidly comfort-tailored to the desires of the occupant(s). They will only run "as needed" with the floors doing most of the work. Also remember that this supplemental heat will allow you great freedom to change floor coverings without serious effect on the radiant floors. Sized and designed properly, these radiators can use nearly the same temperature as the in-floor. This avoids complicated multi-temperature mixing. (You will though likely require two temps--particularly if you use slab down and plates up. Size the panels to work with the higher temp to keep rad size (and cost) down.)

DO: Give HIGH consideration to a condensing/modulating boiler of FINEST quality--unfortunately the Germans seem to have the edge on this so the cost will be quite high. A home of that size in that climate may well require multiple, staged boilers. While it may sound stupid to duplicate an expensive boiler, it has definite advantages--both in efficiency and reliability.

DO: Pay attention to indoor air quality. A home of that construction method will likely be VERY tight. A heat recovery ventilation system should be considered a must. (I think your climate uses a heat recovery system as opposed to energy recovery but always verify with someone who knows your local climate.) I believe that a centralized humidification system can be incorporated into that system as well, but don't hold me to that. Steam humidification systems are by far the most reliable, but can be quite expensive to operate. Remember that good quality free-standing humidification units are quite effective as well and tend to be easier to maintain as they are always "there" and don't tend to be forgotten as easily.

DON'T: Use bare tube or thin "flashing type" plates--either suspended mid-air or attached to the underside of the floor. They will require a much higher supply temperature and are known for very slow performance--even inadequate in really cold spells.

DON'T: Fall prey to fly-by-night contractors or those who rely solely on third-parties for engineering.

DON'T: Forget the power of the sun! Rooms with lots of South-facing glass, hard-surface, high-mass floors can be notoriously difficult to control. If the home is still in the planning stages, give high regard to passive solar but PLAN FOR IT CAREFULLY!

DON'T: Fail to enlist a good radiant contractor EARLY in the ballgame. An EXHAUSTIVE heat-loss calculation and CAREFUL tube layout are truly arts that require high experience or LOTS of study plus a natural "gift" for the art involved. If you're planning on laying the tube/plates/etc. yourself or with your crew, they'll help you avoid common pitfalls. Remember that this experience/design work is HIGHLY valuable and normally accounts for part of the cost when they are doing the system fully with their crew.

DON'T: Forget to consider that different areas are used differently and often have VERY DIFFERENT comfort requirements that can vary for different occupants. Speak of this with the radiant contractor EARLY!!! This is a MAJOR part of the "art" mentioned above! If you're of the age I suspect, remember that many men tend to become cold-natured while their wives remain comfortable at "normal" temperatures! A panel radiator in your study/office could well be a God-send.

p.s. It's to the point, but I have a HARD time keeping it short--sorry!

Tom Meyer

Don't forget us \"goof ball\" hydronics types!

There are some applications we put tube in the wall.

It's always a good thing to sit down and have a "trades coordination" meeting.

Senior Designer/Trainer
Precision Hydronics Corporation
www.precisionhydronics.com

Ted_5

Are you a U.P. er

> Gentleman newbie to your site, I'am in the

> infinite stages of planning construction of a new

> house. I know that I will be definitely going

> with in floor. I'am a finish carpenter by trade

> working in high end houses, so I have a working

> knowledge of the variuos systems out there. Most

> of the systems I have seen have a boiler,

> manifolds and sensors exterior to anticipate

> heating demand.

>

> This house will be built in

> Northern Mi. approx. 6000-7000 sq.ft.with ICF

> forms from footings to eaves. I plan on living in

> house for next 20-25 yrs. Looking for a system

> that is virtually maintenance free, and most

> efficent unit currently on market.

>

> Their are

> many qualified contractors in my area so this is

> really not a concern, but I would like to have

> more info. on types of equipment(ie: manufactors

> etc.),don't want to waste contrators time at this

> point, as stated earlier I'am just beginning to

> start developing thought process. Hope that

> information from professionals, on this forum

> will better prepare me when time comes to choose

> contractor we can get down to what I need

> (ie;time is money and I can certainly appreciate

> that being a trade myself).

>

> The most recent

> house I've been working on has high pressure air

> seems pretty slick, although I'am wondering how

> does one introduce humidty to this system I

> believe that their is a potential problem with

> mold in this type of system with humidity, please

> correct me If I'am wrong.

>

> Also interested in

> exploring geothermal but have no idea how this

> system interacts with boiler system or if this

> system stands alone, and whether it is adequate

> as system for my area.

>

> Basically I figure if

> you professionals were doing your own house and

> you could design and build your own system which

> way would you do it. Willing to spend the money

> up front as I believe the reduced energy costs,

> overall comfort,and potential resale down the

> road will offset any cost up front.

>

> Thanking

> you in advance Sincerely Kevin R, Danielson

Ted_5

Are you a U.P. er

If you are I can help. I am in nortern WI go Packers! and
Viessmann Vitodens 94.2% AFUE.

Good luck

Ted

hot_rod

Plenty of good advise

I'm not a fan of carpet over floor radiant. Would you consider panel radiators, BB, or radiant walls for the bedroom or carpeted areas? I like the quick response of BB or panels for bedrooms, especially, where a night setback and short warm up for wakeing times may be desired. Also it allows ease of setback in unused areas.

As you know the heatloss and design will be your "road map" to a great system. Warmboard, or transfer plates on top would be my first choices for the framed floor areas.

I would also highly encourage you to check into engineered hardwoods, laminates, etc. A much bettter match for radiant floors. The Flooring Guide available from the RPA site is an excellent source for this type of info. Good luck with your project, keep us in the (radiant) loop as you progress.

hot rod

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Glad you mentioned the "carpet" thing, Hotrod. That limb is very shaky for me but rock solid for you!

Kevin R. Danielson

reply Mike

Kevin R. Danielson

Reply Mike Swampeast

Thanks for the post It was very informative, one high end house that I worked on,had in floor with a combo baseboard this was probably for the issues that you posted. Would like to keep the bedrooms a little cooler than rest of house. Wife is from N. Dakota so her blood is pretty thick, we generally try to keep current house at about 65-68 degrees through out heating season. Definitely will get Experienced contractor involved early in development process. Firm believer in hiring a contractor that knows his biz. and also realize that design of system should be factor into overall price, I don't work for free and wouldn't want any trades that work for me to do the same. Fair price, good service = good relationship through out job and future.
Thank you for your time and expertise.

Kevin R. Danielson

Reply Tom Meyer

Tom thanks for post, please be aware that you are not forgotten, heck we can hit some of the stuff you guys hide on us.

Kevin R. Danielson

reply hotrod

Thank you for post not familiar with wall panels, but did job where we trimmed out baseboard with decorative grate on top and it looked pretty good when finished. My understanding if you use carpet you have to use special pad when using in-floor. Maybe better solution would be to use hardwood with large rugs and provide baseboard in addtion in these areas. Or areas that would have carpet plan for additional baseboard heat.
thank you

hot_rod

Trimming baseboard

I remember a job where the trim carpenters spent weeks building beautiful oak enclosures for the Slant Fin baseboards. Nice routered tops, beveled fronts screwed together. But, they ran the face boards to the floor.

Without that bottom gap the convection currents were halted. Very low output BB when that happens Hated to break the news to them after all the work the put into the enclosures!

hot rod

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

radiant

best radiant floor

The Raupanel by Rehau is by far the best radiant system take a look at it. boiler of choice Vitodens by Viessmann especially where you are using propane.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

If you decide to use baseboard

as an adjunct to radiant panel you'll probably be better off with cast iron (Burnham Baseray) instead of fin-tube. Fin-tube has a very non-linear output with changing supply temperature and tends to liberate its heat nearly immediately.

Radiant floors, cast iron rads and steel panel radiators on the other hand tend to be quite linear with changing water temperature and retain their heat over time. This makes it easier to keep operating temperature low (where a condensing boiler shines best) and easier to design everything to work within a relatively narrow temperature range with proportional flow devices automatically compensating for minor differences.

If that house you saw with BB and floor radiant had LOTS of glass or other unusally high heat loss, the BB may well have been supplemental to the floor as opposed to an adjunct.

When mixing heat sources in the same area, it seems to me to be much simpler to use proportional control as opposed to elaborate staging systems. When I first tried this I was afraid that the ensuing battle between the heat sources might have unforseen consequences. I was half-right--there IS a "battle" so to speak, but the consequence is exceptional versatility and comfort. The only real problem is expense of materials.

Steve Ebels

Kevin

1, Don't rule out fuel oil. It usually averages about 20-25% less expensive per btu than lp gas. If you would use a Viessmann VBC series boiler you would eliminate concerns about low water temp. Also you can forget everything you have seen as far as fuel oil burners go. The Viessmann chassis burner is, in and of itself a work of art in the realm of oil fired burners. If all, and I do mean all of your appliances, stove, dryer, gas fireplace, etc. are going to be LP then I would have to do the math and see how you would come out.

2. Gyp-crete is nice. In a number of instances, it can't be beat. You want to keep in mind though that sometimes that high mass can work against you. (solar gain, coming out of setback etc.)

3. Hard surface floors definitely take full advantage of the capabilities of a radiant floor. As for carpet, do your homework on what type of pad and keep the carpet and pad as thin as possible. What you wind up with if you get into a system with a lot of different floor coverings is a need for widely differing water temps. This adds cost and complexity to your system.

4.Solar gain can be one of the worst things to deal with in a radiant floor system. Think of your floor radiating its correct output at 8 AM on a nice frosty morning in February. The system is looking at the outdoor temp, (say 5*) and has the water temp in the floor adjusted accordingly. About 9-10AM the sun starts reflecting off the snow and adding its radiant energy to your multi-windowed room. Presto, instant and I do mean instant, 80*+ in that room. Best to design a room like that with a two stage scenario. It's the only sure-fire way to address solar gain that I've found to work every time.

We did a house right on the North shore of Lake Charlevoix in Boyne City that had a solid glass wall facing south. The wall was 8' high and 28' long and 90% glass. Unfortunately the owner refused to go with the two-stage recommendation and found out the hard way how powerful the sun's radiant energy is. (Can we all say sauna) He had 3/4" oak on the floor and it would literally get so hot between the btu's from the floor and the sun you couldn't walk on it with bare feet. The room sensor would shut down that zone, but the residual btu's in the gyp would keep on going just like the Energizer bunny until 2-3 in the afternoon. After the sun went down the floor suddenly had to play catch up and it would be 7 o-clock in the evening before the room was comfortable again. Let's just say we went back this spring and did some changes for him.

5. Basement is a no-brainer. Insulate the foundation and under the slab, lay in the tube and pour. It's truly the only way to bring a basement to the point of usable comfort.