Radiator Traps

Steamhead

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Bryan_5

Radiator Traps repair

I posted the Trouble finding Steamman post yesterday and thanks for the response. have a specific question for you guys. On my 2 pipe vapor system I need to service the traps. I dont think it has been done in a long time. I was curious to know what the best way to go about this is. When removing the plug I cant see whats inside those darn elbows due to the where they are located. No ball came out so I am not sure what I have got inside yet. When you guys service these do you take the whole elbow off? Or do you use a mirror to see what you are dealing with? Heating season is just about over and would like to do this in the off months to all of the radiators. The trap in the pic is the most common. I do have a few radiators with bucket traps. The ones with the buckets are on radiator that have both pipes on the same side. I dont have a pic of that type yet but will post it ASAP. Any tips or ideas would be great. Thanks again.
Bryan

Bryan_5

BTW the radiators are made by the American Radiator Co. I dont see any markings on the traps so I am not sure who made them.
Bryan

Unknown

Steam trap?

I never saw one like that. I do not have a picture or reference to the trap on the radiator in my files.

It does not appear to be a servicible steam trap.

I think this unit has no moving parts inside. It may have a partition inside. The partition will will create a water seal. Stean cannot pass through the water and therefore the unit will prevent steam from going into the return piping.


The partition should have a small hole near the top. The hole allows system air to vent to the return piping system.

If this unit is waht I described the system operating pressure should be about a half pound.

The rediator is equipped with an adjustible steam valve. This steam valve when properly adjusted will supply the correct amount of steam to heat the room.

If your boiler operating steam pressureis one PSIG or greater the valve needs to be adjusted to meter the steam into the radiator. By metering the steam into the radiator you can lower the steam pressure entering the radiator and can drop the steam pressure to zero at the exit point.

The lower the stem pressure the better the water seal device will work. The water seal will not be blown out.

If this device is what I described all that is needed is to clean the internals and make sure the vent hole is not blocked.


Jake

Bryan_5

Jake,
Thanks for the reply. From what I can tell in the Lost Art the re are a couple of possibillities for what may lie inside those elbows. I am betting that it has the hole as you described. I belive some of them may be blocked. Which should explain the end of cycle water hammer. I am no expert just using some of the things I have learned from you guys I am just not sure that I want to be taking the elbow off. I will check with a mirror maybe they could be cleaned out that way. Any other thoughts guys?
Bryan

Bryan_5

Jake,
Also I am sure they can be serviced otherwise why the plug? I dont think there are any parts to be replaced. Just a good cleaning is what I was thinking.

Steamhead

Bryan, that looks like a Water-Seal Vapor System!

The special return fitting is the clue here. It holds a small quantity of water which keeps steam from passing into the dry return, and there's a small hole somewhere to vent air. The plug is there to drain the water seal to prevent freeze-ups.

At first I thought that was a Mouat system. The water-seal return fittings look somewhat like Mouat's, but I looked Mouat up and yours aren't quite the same. Look real closely, and try to find names on the return fittings, radiator shutoffs, and any old equipment you may find in the basement. This will help us identify your system. And definitely take some more pics and post them!

The radiators you mention that have "bucket" traps may have been added later. These traps are probably thermostatic units. They do the same job as the old water-seal units did, but they do have moving parts.

The radiators were sized and purchased separately from the Vapor hardware. This was not uncommon during the Vapor Era.

As long as the radiators are heating properly and quietly, I see no reason to take them apart. Try to localize where that end-of-cycle water-hammer is coming from and we'll look there.

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Bryan_5

Wow that sure would be great to have real pro come visit. What I can tell you about the water hammer is it does come from a room that is shut off. The valve is turned off. Keeps the radiators completly cold. Could this be a clue? Also the reason I question the traps is the some of the radiators only get hot on the top. Never below say 3 inches from the top. The Rad in the pic is one of them. That is also the biggest one in the house I am sure that may be one reason. But some of the smaller ones do the same. Tell me what you want pics of. I have posted the boiler its a US NATIONAL Radiator Co. Which was bought by Crane in the 50's. If you want to see them I can repost.

Bryan_5

a couple of pictures for you Steamhead. The vents were replaced with the Gorton #2's per your suggestion. They work great. They are also up on a 6 inch nipple. Nothing odd or out of the ordanary in the basment. THose are the only 2 vents down there.

Steamhead

Slow Radiators

in this system are probably due to plugged vent holes in those return fittings. But a bad main vent in the basement can cause this too. The air vents thru the return fittings into the dry return, and leaves the system thru a vent on the dry return. So a bad vent there will affect the whole system.

Somehow I missed your boiler room pics. If you could re-post them it would help, especially if they showed the piping and any old Vapor equipment around the boiler. That National-US is not the house's original boiler- the company was formed by the merger of National Radiator Co and U.S. Radiator Co sometime in the 1950s, and later bought by Crane as you said. Slant/Fin later bought the operation from Crane. But your American Peerless radiators were made in the early 1900s. I have the same ones on an old hot-water system.

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Bryan_5

The vents are on the mains. Those 2 pipes branch off of the larger main right near the boiler there is no vent on the large main either. there is nothing on the Dry returns any where I looked many times as I said the vents have been replaced by 2 new gortons.

Steamhead

I remember it now

Are both the vents on return lines, or does one of them vent the end of the steam main?

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Bryan_5

Look at this pic you can see those vents are piped off of the main at the bottom. In the second pic you can see the return line to the right of the electical. The 2 vented pipes supply heat to one side of the house.

Steamhead

Very Important Question

I do not see a vent on the dry return line to the right of the electrical cutout box. Is there one? Remember, the radiators vent their air into the return and it MUST have a way out.

If there is no vent on the dry return, that explains your radiators that don't heat well. The steam is compressing the trapped air in the rads and returns enough to let some steam into the rads.

I'll bet when the boiler was replaced, they removed a strange-looking device that was actually the dry return vent. You can have the dry return drilled and tapped for as many Gorton #2 vents needed to solve the problem.

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Bryan_5

Steamhead,
I am sure there are no vents on that return. I looked and looked. Now If I drill and tap for the Gortons I have 2 questions. One where do they belong? 2 how many do you think I will need. I did the math on the edr's but dont recal the square footage. I rember it calculated into 130,000 to 150,000 btu's with the 1.5 pickup dont recall exactly. Havent measured how long they are though. And do you think it may have been like this since that boiler was installed? thats a long time to have poor heating dont you think?

Bryan_5

steamhead,
1 more quick question do you think that I even need to mess with those elbows then?
Bryan

Bryan_5

also what purpose do those vents on the smaller mains serve? and why not have on the larger main? Just curious
Bryan

Steamhead

One #2 should do it on that dry return

and I'd put it near the boiler. This will keep the air and condensate flowing in the same direction. I prefer to tap a cast fitting such as a tee or elbow rather than the pipe itself as the fittings have thicker walls, and this results in more threads available to hold the vent pipe in place.

But before you have it tapped, double-check that entire dry return line and any others in the house. There may be a vent you haven't found yet. If there is, you'll save yourself some work.

If, after installing one #2 on the dry return you hear air rushing out of it, add another one.

As to the system running poorly since the boiler was changed- well, I've seen that plenty of times. Just because something has been a certain way for years doesn't mean it's right. The Dead Men who originally installed that system have probably been grumbling for years- now you have a chance to make them happy!

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Steamhead

Not right now

Make sure the dry return is properly vented, then try the system again. I'll bet you see a big difference by fixing the venting! If you still have problems, then you can clean out the return fittings.

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Steamhead

You'd have to trace them out

but I'll bet the steam main splits in two at some point, and those little pipes with vents on them are there to drain start-up condensate from the mains after they split. The reason for the vents themselves is obvious- you need to clear all the air from the steam mains in about a minute so all radiators get steam at about the same time.

Also, you need to insulate those steam pipes. You're losing a lot of heat there, and it all goes up the chimney when the burner runs.

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Bryan_5

Thanks so much for all of your help. I will get the Gorton and give it a whirl. Thanks again.

Bryan_5

Steamhead,
Thats what I figured onthe main vents. Also the insulation is on order. Ordered the JM 1inch fiberglass. Will get it put on right away.

Steamhead

If you do this yourself

get a 1/2-inch pipe thread tap and tap a separate hole for each #2 you install. You may not have room to tap into the top of the pipe or fitting, but tapping into the side is OK in this case. If you tap the side, provide an upward pitch from the return line so any water that gets in there can drain out.

Let us know how you make out!

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Bryan_5

I will do this myself, I have no choice in the matter. I have no one to do it for me they are all scared of the steam as my other post says. Not the first time I have tapped something.
Now if I go off the side of a fitting or a pipe what type of angle do I want? How long should that pipe comming off of the tap be before the elbow and nipple for the vent? Am I on the right track with my thought process?

Steamhead

A short nipple

up to about 4-inches long or so should be fine. Drill and tap the opening so the nipple pitches up from the return pipe slightly. Then screw an elbow on the nipple, install your vent and you're ready.

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Bryan_5

Thanks again for all of your help. I truely appreciate it. Not alot of trades would do what you guys do here. I also beleive it has got to be great for business. You guys are like a walking history book with what you know about these systems. I owe you one. Heading out for the weekend so thanks again
Bryan

Bryan_5

BTW I will let you know how I make out on this.
Bryan

Bryan_5

Steamhead,
I wanted to show you a picture of the "bucket trap" I was talking about. I should have called it a inverted bucket. Dont think its a thermostatic trap. Not sure but it looks original to me. Couldnt find any markings on it. Any idea who may have made it? Got close to identifing the other one in the Lost Art Companinon but not quite. Let me know your thoughts.

Bryan_5

Forgot the pics

Steamhead

Those are water seals too

and they work the same way as the other ones do. You're a lucky guy to have a system like this!

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Bryan_5

Thanks for the reply. I figured they were as well. Do you think they are the originals to the system? Do you have any idea who may have made these? Just trying to cure my curiosity. Thanks again for all of your help.

Steamhead

Good Question

On the ones I've seen, the water seals were all the same. Do you know if your house was added to at some point? This might explain the different water seal units. Or, they might have changed the design of the seals and shipped some older ones and some newer ones in the same order.

Are there any markings at all on the water seals or radiator shutoffs?

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Bryan_5

The house had an addition added on that is not heated. At one time the house was set up as a 2 family. That is not the answer either. The T water seals are both upstairs and down. The only spots they are in the house is where they didnt have enough room to go on the other side of the Radiator. Or maybe didnt want to go on the other side of the Rad. As I said I dont know the history of the house. I do know that the home was built 1st class all the way. It is a beutiful home with hardwood floors and beutiful wood through out the house. They did it all perfect including the heat.
Bryan

Steamhead

Addition Not Heated?

Sounds like a candidate for another group of Vapor radiators with water seals!

Now all we have to do is find some water seal units. T.P.Tunstall, are you listening? Think you could duplicate these things?

If we can't find water seals, thermostatic traps will do. But I'd love to see the same thing on each radiator........

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Bryan_5

Part of it is an uninsullated summer kitchen no room for a radiator walls are lined with cabinets. I do plan on insullating it. But would like to keep the cabinets. No heat is a problem in that room refig is in there as well. And that is not good in the winter. Other half is a mud room that I guted and redid this winter could easily add a rad in that room. Would also want a matching valve if I could do it.

Steamhead

You could find some radiators

that would take up minimal wall space and wouldn't displace many cabinets. Do a heat-loss on both rooms and see how much heat you need (with insulated walls of course) and we can take it from there.

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Bryan_5

Sounds good thanks will do.

Bryan_5

Steamhead,
A couple of pictures of the dryreturn are attatched. As you can see its pretty crowded up there. Was wondering the best place to put that Gorton. On the first pic the 2nd pipe from the bottom is where the Dryreturn enters from the system. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks again for all of your help.
Bryan

Steamhead

The Tee would be a good place

drill into the side of the tee and tap the hole. Or, you can undo the union and replace the 90-degree elbow on either side with a tee, then elbow up to the vent.

What does the pipe do that comes out the top of the tee, then goes over, down and up again? Is that another branch of the dry return?

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Bryan_5

Steamhead,
The Tee is what I was thinking. Just wanted to confirm. As far as the other pipe. That is another branch. That branch goes to the hottest radiator in the house. Its about 2 feet from where the picture is.

Bryan_5

Steamhead,
I assume you mean replace the nipple between the union and elbow with the tee?