Hydronic Trends.............hb

heatboy

I struggle at times with the question of "Should I make it myself or should I buy it?". These are two of my latest projects and while these basically do the same thing, the ideas are different. Since I can't look at mechanical things as your normal consumer would, I'll ask you guys for input. Which is more/less intimidating to the consumer? The wide open see it all designs we all do or the hide it and make it look like an appliance way. This, I believe, is a decision we will all have to make soon since these pre-made panels are not going away and will probably proliferate over the next few years. Do the panels take away our individualism or do they make our's and our employees life easier?

I have three projects to start and I would like to make a desicion about the panels soon.

hb

<A HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=103&Step=30">To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"</A>

hot_rod

Think inside the box, grasshopper!

Personally I feel the ZCP concept is here to stay. From my experience consumers prefer an attractive box's of heat to sprawling panels. Less intimidating.

But why not ask the customer? Have some nice large glossy photos done of various systems you have done and present it to them. Box A or Wall B? Doesn't have to be a either or choice.

As much as I enjoy building a wall of heat, if you crunch the numbers I think you will find prefab panels win hands down. Heck on leakey solder joint that involves a drain down, fill and purge can add hours to a site built panel job! It boils down to your labor hour rate for jobsite fab, compared to the cost of factory buit parts.

Now if I could just get a helicopter to drop into the jobsite the pre-tubed remesh panels

Let's get Bean on that task!

hot rod

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Eeegad!!!

I'm gettin' scared...

Mike Lampkin_2

Decision Time


Hi Heatboy,

As a technician, I would take one of your personally
built panels anyday. They truly are a work of art that you
can be very proud of. The design is part of you, a "one of
a kind", that you alone have created.
As a consumer, I look at the beautiful ZCP's from
Danfoss and also see quality and great workmanship.
I guess, as a consumer, I have to consider what to do
when something in one of these panels goes wrong. What if
I can no longer get in touch with Heatboy? If, I go with
the ZCP, I can always get in touch with someone from
Danfoss.
As the ZCP's further evolve down the road, technicians
will most probably be troubleshooting the panels from a
remote location, with a set of prints in front them.
As the technology changes, so will the panels. Will it
be easier to swap out the box, or modify a whole system?
My business side says, "Go with the ZCP", while my
heart says, "Go with the Heatboy personal touch".
Happy choosing,
Mike Lampkin

Boilerpro_3

I believe the most important issue is....

Servicability. While the point is well taken that the systems we are putting in will well outlive us, the question also comes will the component manufacturers outlive the system. Historically, this has not been the case (ie. the huge variety of Vapor heating system manufacturers). When those components in those ZCP go bad, will the company still be around, and will the components be available? Will you be able to fit a completely new zone valve of a different design in that little box? If not, the customer will be footing a very large bill for installing a completely new box. When piping control panels, I always try to leave room for these types of changes for this reason. What I am afraid will happen is that hydronics is going to go the way of much of the forced air industry, with every single furnace requiring its own partiular control components, creating the nightmare for service seen today.

Boilerpro

Art Pittaway

Yesterday is here today..!

Over the last twenty years a large percentage of what we all have done is find "something" to replace the obsolete (insert component) that just died. Look at the commercial valve actuation and control market. Twenty years ago it was Pneumatic actuators, and they do a great job, but today it's electric, and digital controls. Bought your computer two years ago...well it's obsolete today! (:-0 The only things that are consistent are the laws of physics, you still will not squeeze 200 gpm quietly through a 2" pipe, or a 1" valve. And a 2" valve will not give consistant control at 10 gpm.
Art

Mike T., Swampeast MO

EXACTLY

When choosing modular components you should only use companies of good, long history using STANDARD components--either a standard set by that company or essentially generic.

A while back I was snooping in a vacant, extremely high-style home built in the 1930s. (Originally built by the family of a close friend so I didn't feel TOO bad going through the unlocked door.)

The original lighting system was one I had not seen before. All of the switches were SPDT momentary and connected only with low-voltage wire. There was a central control point--a VERY substantial looking box filled with relays. I was SHOCKED to see that the relays are of a type still easily available to this day! While I doubt that the original switches are available, I do know that substitutions are (if a bit hard to find). The system was manufactured/assembled by a company still in business.

A similar, bit newer system that I see MUCH more often (also made by a company still in business) used proprietary components that are no longer available.

John Felciano

Nice

work as always HB!

I've looked into Danfoss panels and think they are well put together and probably a time/money saver,but I just can't bring myself to use them.I'm too much of a "free trapper" kind of guy.

I will agree that many of the radiant systems we do are overwelming to the customer,and some oil service techs,but it's also the first place customers take their friends when they ask about the heating system.

The pre made panels are really no diferent than what we build on site.Their just put together in a controlled inviroment and in a nice neat box.I do think they have a place.I've seen many systems that were nothing more than a sloppy mess of pumps and piping put together by some contractor with no pride in his work.In these cases I think a pre made panel would help.

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

heatboy

My labor or someone else's?

That's one of the decisions I face. While I can make more money for my company with all of the labor involved making my own panels, it takes me away from working on my business. As I see it, my client will pay the same whether I purchase the panel (I love the ZCPs!) or expend the effort, which can be tedious at times, to make them myself. I need to spend less time in the mechanical room and save my energy for cultivating quality clients. This, it dawns on me, is a much more productive use of my time.

hb

Mike Kraft

hb.........

sounds like you answered yourself!

cheese

John Felciano

Help

Sounds like it's time to hire some more help.Let them do the easy/time consuming stuff so you can spend more time in the boiler room and working on the business.

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Paul Pollets

It seems

you've made the correct decisions by choosing Viessmann and Danfoss. They've been around for many years and are certainly at the top of technology in boiler design and controls. I'd want to bet they'll be here 100 years from now. Since we won't, I'd prefer to use equipment that will. I agree with HR that the ZCP's are the obvious choice for multi-temp systems. I prefer to build my own 1-3 temp manifolds. It's too easy with Viessmann components and plug n play. Now working "on the business" is highly desired...and just as important as the components we select for our systems.

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Art Pittaway

MIKE....THAT'S MY HOUSE..!!!

Yup...My house was remodeled in the 60's - 70's and a low voltage switching system was installed for the lights. The wave of the future, NOT. The relays are a GE item @ $35.00 each. The contractor hid the relays everywhere and did some of the worst wiring I've ever seen. I just found a source for the switch @ $6.50? each. Some of mine are pretty beat. The only thing I see that is worth while is you can control a single light or function from any number of points. i.e. The hall light has five switches that operate it.
Art

heatboy

Good idea!

I already asked Cheese, but he turned me down. *sniff* Seriously, though. I believe finding great help is much easier than finding great clients.

hb

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Mike T., Swampeast MO

GE remote light system relays

Presume these are the round ones that are box mounted?

I stand VERY corrected if they're still available. Tried to find a replacement master control for someone and had to find an old one as couldn't locate new replacement. I buy those components when I see them at flea mkts/junk stores for "future" use.

What I really liked about the older system was the way all of the relays were centrally located.

Art Pittaway

I took a picture last night

but couldn't post it. CPU troubles. I have the part numbers and I will check on the switch that my hardware has. It's a real hardware, not HD. The relay is a GE Industrial product and I'll post the numbers.
Art

Art Pittaway_2

Lighting relays

The relays are a GE Industrial item. #RR7 Remote Control Relay. It also says,"UL Listed Industrial control 508G".

Art Pittaway_2

Lighting relays

The relays are a GE Industrial item. #RR7 Remote Control Relay. It also says,"UL Listed Industrial control 508G".

Art Pittaway_2

Lighting relays

The relays are a GE Industrial item. #RR7 Remote Control Relay. It also says,"UL Listed Industrial control 508G".
Really loaded the picture wrong but it's big enough that you can read the box....if you want to wait.
Art

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Thanks Art!

Always helps to have the number--then MAYBE they can find it in their books...