Does anyone have pictures of Ultra Boiler Installs?

chuck shaw

when someone is misinformed. I have always said, people will believe the first thing they hear, even if it is a lie (or in this case just plain wrong, with no evil intent). The person who told you this should loose his ability to sell the boiler line. And, a car engine is not a boiler, they are different animals, designed to do different things.

If someone is not comfortable with a new product, I can understand that, but just because you dont want to be the first on the block to install one, doesnt mean its bad.

If you are that worried about it (unfounded in my opinon) present your case to the customer, and let him make the choice, its his money. Set yourself up with a disclamer.

The supply houses I have talked to, are being very selective about who they will sell an Ultra to, with your lack of basic knowlege about condensing boilers, you may not be able to get one anyway.

Chuck

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Mike Reavis_2

Does anyone have pictures of Ultra Boiler Installs?

I have a building owner who is curious and is thinking of using a few. Any help? Mike

Floyd

go to..

weil-mclain.com click on the ultra boiler pic. ....click on sales lit. page 3 has pics. of boiler installation.

Kal Row

Ultra Boiler Installs

i did some research on this - you need to make your customer understand that with a modulating fully condensing aluminum heat exchanger - these boilers are more service prone and are not forgiving to cold shock - so the install will require primary/secondary loops with closely spaced tee's, temperature bypasses - the whole works - the overall life cost increase, may be equal to or grater than the energy saving, not to mention the grief cost.
I would stick to the Wile-Mclain CG series - which is a very forgiving design and, will even operate the pump, for a minute, once every 30days, of off time, to keep the ceramic bearings in the new style pumps from sticking.
remember the "cutting edge" is also the "bleeding edge"
kal

Floyd

Wow...

wonder where you got your info..... someone's really been messin' with your head!!!!!
Most of what you posted above is totally incorect!!!!

Cold water IS encouraged.... mixing valves and bypass NOT needed, pri-sec. NOT needed for all applications.....And there is no service record for these boilers yet, other than the beta versions... so how can you make a blanket statement like that?????

DanHolohan

I'm with you, Floyd

and you and I heard it from the same engineers.

That exchanger is in a lot of European boilers and the service record is good from what I'm hearing.

Kal Row

got ya

the info came from a Wiel-Mclain Dealer, I am not going to mention his name cause it looks like he could loose his dealership - sorry - though you will have a hard time convincing me that this boiler can take the same beating that a cast iron boiler can

DanHolohan

Sounds like

the guy needs to get his learn on, Kal.

cruizer

You're right Kal...

...it doesn't take the same beating as a cast iron boiler, it takes a bigger one.

I wonder where you're dealer friend got his info?

I know of an Ultra installation where the return water comes directly from a basement slab. Startup it is pulling in 60 deg water, and when it reached temp, it stays at 90 deg water. It's heating the entire upstairs, soley (sp?) off the basement. Has been doing that for six to eight months now, not a single problem.

Try that with a cast iron boiler and see where it get's ya.

Kal Row

takes a beating

OK: what about a 3 zone valve system with one zone already up at 140-160 and 2 zones with 50 degree water in them open at once?

Kal Row

and another thing

ask you favorite car mechanic how many head gaskets he's replaced on cars with cooling sys falures with cast blocks and with aluminm blocks, in my experiance it is 3:1 in favor of the old car's cast block! The coeficient of expanstion of aluminum is a lot greater

Jackchips

Hey,

this is great. We haven't had a good ten rounder in a while and so far Murph isn't needed.

Mike Reavis

So I guess I'm not getting those pictures, eh?

:-{
Mike

Steve Eayrs

You may want to stick.....

to your horse & buggy, cuz I hear them cars is on the cutt'n edge.

These boilers are designed for cold returns and run better that way, not worse!

The P/S piping is recommended to be able to keep the pumps smaller, and still maintain the recomended head through the boiler.

I would recommend you find another dealer. I imagine he has not even sold one of these. Where is his info coming from?

Steve
Steve

Floyd

Mike.....

I wish I had pics.... fact is that I am waiting for delivery of two boilers..... were promised this week, and I just got word yesterday that they would be shipping 4/7. I am putting one in my own house and another in a low temp app. where I can compare fuel usage with a atomosphereic cast iron side by side with the same load on each.... should be interesting!!!!!

I will be updating here as soon as I can get these puppies up and running.

The pics. that I referenced this morning are an actual install in the house of the Weil engineer that headed up the project.....his wife is extremely jealous of the boiler....it has been getting more attention than she does!!!!

Steve Ebels

Kal

I'll agree to a point with the assumption that the high tech condensing boilers on the market require more service. They are more complicated than the old standby iron and contain more parts, pieces and controls. That being said so does the car you drive now compared to one of 50 years ago. Which one would you rather have for your daily tranplantation?
On the aluminum part. I have to see how these hold up under normal (think zero here) maintenance or agressive water conditions that are not discovered for one reason or another.
There are other brands out there that are high efficiency and are constructed differently. The Vitodens from Viessmann is 316 grade stainless steel and has the most awesome burner ever installed in a residential boiler. Viesmann also has a csat iron boiler that has no restrictions on low temperature. Don't get locked into one brand. Keep your head up and your eyes open. There are a ton of excellent products out there today.
My opinion is that unless an application is all low temp (below 130-135*) the margin of savings over a good CI boiler, installed correctly is barely enough to justify the added expense and service of a condensing boiler.

(bet I get some static over that last statement)

Tom Meyer

Now THERE is an idea!

Maybe a phone call to Weil-McLain direct to get the latest and greatest information on the Ulta would be a thought.

Senior Designer/Trainer
Precision Hydronics Corporation
www.precisionhydronics.com

DanHolohan

I dropped a note

to Bob Muser and he's going to have someone get the photos to Mike. Thanks.

Kal Row

photos...

there is a "pdf" brochure at this link
and well as all the manuals
http://www.weil-mclain.com/ultra/modelultra.htm

Kal Row

if the product is as hardy as you people tout - why the "very selective" elitist holdback - what are they afraid of??? as - for experiance with condensing boilers i have good experiance with "Hydrotherm"

DanHolohan

Not sure that's true, Kal,

and it's not at all the impression I got when we were at Michigan City for our meeting on March 14.

chuck shaw

it is true,

at least with the supply houses I deal with. Their concern, is someone who doesnt understand the concept, and ends up bad mouthing the boiler (as with previous posts about the ESP zone valves). And guess what, seems they are correct.

Chuck Shaw

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Kal Row

perhaps they need to train their supply houses before they promote the product so that this doesn't happen, and my supply house may have had trouble with product availability and tried to keep me buying the stuff in stock
- I still don't have an answer of how the aluminium heat exchanger in a 3 zone primary system at 160 degrees would handle the sudden influx of 50 degree water from another zone on a regular basis, not necessarily a good design - but there are a lot of them out there to be retrofitted - where re-piping may not always be practical?

Ted_5

What will the heat X

do under the conditions that Wiel set for this boiler. I listend to a Wiel rep. say that the boiler could be opperating at very low temps. like 75f and when a DHW calls
the temp goes to high limit 190f. After the DHW call it goes
back to low temps. try that 10 times a day. I HEARD a Dunkirk alum. boiler go from a cold start to high limit. It
talk alot {ping, ting, click } Thats not that way in Germany
max water temp. 167f. Time will tell.

tombig

My Two Cents

Kal, all of us have seen 30-50 yr. old (and older) cast boilers in good shape. Relatively new in the low temp distribution market, I'm still assimilating data. I was at the Weil presentation and I was impressed with their product. The Wallies peppered those engineers with questions for two hours. Stainless vs. Alum., thermal shock, etc.. I totally agree with your last statement about suppliers. For years I have relied on knowledgeable counter men and their bosses for answers to my sales/design questions. Now I find myself educating them about new products and applications, mostly from what I've learned here at this site, and I'm in a large market area.
Condensing boilers really shine with low return temps in terms of energy savings. If the application includes a lot of high temp radiation will the customer really realize the energy savings over a high AFUE cast boiler. I'm not so sure. For a low temp only with DHW it's a no brainer to me. The Ultra has outdoor reset and DHW priority out of the box. That's a nice feature for the right application.
It's a new product. It's become our job as contractors to evaluate it and sell it. Apparently my new friend Floyd was impressed enough to order one for his house. (Hey Buddy) The Chevy Vega with its aluminum block was Motor Trend's car of the year in '72. It was a bust. Biggest crap engine out there. Will that stop me from selling (or buying) an Ultra? No way. For the right application it seems to be a sweet piece of machinery. Time will tell about the HX. Maybe they might be humming along after 30-50 yrs.


Tom Goebig
Goebig Mechanical
Chicago

cruizer

160 deg to 50 deg

Kal,
With the block being aluminum, this poses no problems for the Ultra boiler. Wether you are running 160 deg water and then mix in the 50 deg water, or if you stop 160 deg water and just jump into the 50 deg, there is no problem. The Ultra will ramp up to bring the water to the desired output, it will just create more condensate.
Example: One Ultra boiler is set up for a snowmelt application, with domestic on priority. When domestic calls, it shuts down the sm, and then the boiler increases output to 190 deg. When the call for heat is satisfied, the snowmelt is turned back on, and 57 deg water is returning back to the boiler. No problems, because of the cast aluminum block.

And you want to know why your mechanics are continusouly replacing head gaskets? Because of dissimilar metals. See the block is an aluminum block yes, but I guarantee you that the head is still cast iron. (I have never heard of a problem on an engine with an aluminum head and aluminum block.) The expansion and contraction rates between the two metals vary excessively. It is quite easy to see how a gasket is going to go bad, rip, tear, and generally wear out faster because the top and bottom are moving at two different rates, causing it to stretch. On the Ultra, the metals that come into contact with each are are similar in expansion and contraction rates, therefor the gaskets will not wear out do to abnormal circumstances.

Floyd

There are no gaskets.....

the block is one solid aluminum pour.... they call it a monoblock.....not an easy feat to accomplish!!!!

Floyd

We grilled the Weil people...

about just those types of situations....they said... yup....it will make noise.... but no, it won't hurt it.....

In fact it seemed like they were daring us to try to do ANYTHING to try and destroy on of those puppies....


They never meet ME before.....:-)

This could be FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Scott M

I dont have any pictures but if any of you are in Mass., stop by Jomars Dist. in Woburn for a look at an Ultra setup.They use it to heat the building with radiant,Unico,sidewalk and loading dock snow melt ,and hot water. Extreamly quite.Its also set up in tandum with a Weil Cg I believe.All of it is exposed in the showroom,nice job if anybody is in the neighborhood.