Local Family ALMOST dies of C.O. Poisoning

Glenn Harrison

I agree, follow up will be very important. I know our office will call on this one regularly until the furnace is replaced, and just to check on the family health status.

As far as the existing furnace goes, the choices were, replace the heat exchanger, and probably burners, then test furnace and see if anything else is needed. I added up the prices out of our book and the HX and burners is fairly close to the price of a new unit, and if any other repairs are needed it would surely put the rebuild at the cost of a new unit. I did leave the gas to the furnace capped so the customer would have to put some effort into running it. The other nice thing is the weather, 75º today and 60's and 70's for the next few.

Glenn Harrison

First call this Morning

was a Carbon Monoxide investigation. Customer greets me and informs me that about 3:30 AM Sunday Morning his Daughter woke up complaining that her eyes were burning and she felt really dizzy, light headed, and nautious. This was followed by her falling down almost unconcious. Mom gets up to check her and get help and she falls down from dizziness and broke her ankle. Dad calls 911 and F.D. gets them all out and checks house. F.D. finds 300 PARTS C.O. in house, and shuts down furnace.

First I check furnace, 14-15 years old, find very dirty with laundry lint due to being next to washer and dryer. Also see white and black soot in HX and rolling out of HX around burner shield. Also determined furnace has never been professionally cleaned due to factory thermocouple still installed (customer has only owned house for two years). Relit and cycled furnace, found center and right burners producing over 2000 parts C.O. and left burner at 250 parts. Inspected HX and only found one small crack in right cell. Next checked Water Heater, and found unit ran at 850 parts for over a minute and then came down to 150 over about 5 minutes. So furnace and W.H. both burning badly but still don't see why such high C.O. levels so quickly. Started quizing cutomer and found they had been using fireplace all Saturday evening and he left the damper open after puting fire out. Determined fireplace must of put house into a negative pressure and caused furnace and W.H. flue's to spill and dump high C.O. from improper burning appliances to fill house and almost kill the family. Thanks god their daughter woke up and complained of sickness or they would have all woken up dead for sure the next morning.

I shut off the furnace and water heater. We put in a new water heater today, and they will get back to us on the furnace due to financial reasons and the warm weather, and yes I did give them all the payment options, but they still want to wait, so I left the furnace off and told them not to use it under any circumstances. The good news is Dad and daughter were released Sunday afternoon after treament. Mom is still in the hospital due to her broken ankle, she had to have surgery to put screws in her ankle, but should be out tomorrow.

This is the third time in four years I have come accross a combination of a fireplace causing a negative and poorly fired appliances spilling into the house. So in conjunction with selling C.O. detectors and educating our customers about C.O. and proper maintenance, remember to have them open a window when using a fireplace to provide proper fresh air to the fireplace, and if told what is the point of using the fireplace and then having a window open, the answer is, if you don't want the window open, then don't use the fireplace, it's better then waking up dead!

Glenn Harrison, Residential Service Techician

Althoff Industries, Crystal Lake, Illinois

Althoff Industies Link

tombig

CO

Way to go, Glenn. A hero among us!

Tom Goebig

John R. Hall

Glen

Excellent work. Too bad more consumers don't hear these stories and take action. I think ignorance of CO dangers is our worst enemy. I am always open to suggestions on how to get the word out better, besides the aftermath of a tragedy.

MURPH'

AFTER TWO .........

Appliances are doomed and only one replaced, follow up will be very important. What are some things you can do with this unit. If you want check your rountable notes and email me your phone number and I will call you after 8:00 pm.



Murph' (moderator)

Glenn Harrison

Gee wiz Tom,

your making me blush Thanks for the compliment. I just wish I had the chance to get to this family BEFORE this happened.

Unknown

A low level CO detector

would have alerted them before any of this ever happened.

My suggestion replace all the heating and water heating equipment. Do a pressurization test on this house. If possible isolate the heating and water heating equipment with provision for air from outdoors.

Another option which is the best option is sealed combustions systems for furnace and water heater.Side wall vent with all air from outdoors.

I saw an incident like this several years ago. The equipment was replaced with atmoshperic same operation type natural draft equipment. Low and behold the same thing happened again with the new equipment.

I would venture to say that this was an ongoing problem that did not just happen but has been building up to this incident.

Mark Hunt

Open Windows

Great work Glenn!

One cautionary note about opening windows. There are times when that will make the problem worse. I do not believe that this is the case in your situation.

If you have a blocked flue passage and CO is spilling into the basement, open windows will allow the house to become the chimney and the flue products will move that way. Stack effect at work again.

Sealed combustion appliances or power vented equipment can overcome negative pressures to a point. We use -50 pascals as our maximum allowable depressurization for power vented equipment.

You should do as Timmie suggested and perform a worse case depressurization. This may be happening when other exhausts are running as well.

Test, test, test!

Mark H

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

John R. Hall

$$$

Another sidebar to this story is the fact that the people could not afford the price of a new furnace. I understand their dilemma -- as I am sure many people can sympathize with times when they had to make a choice between paying bills or rent versus paying for a major repair/replacement. You would think that there would be some agency or institution that would recognize this family's plight and set up financing for them -- even asking businesses in the community to chip in.

It is one thing to ignore a health risk and it is another to be unable to eliminate the risk once it is identified. How's this for a pipe dream -- establishing a fund for people who cannot afford repairs and face serious health risks. Maybe each community should have one -- maybe some do and if so, they should be publicized.

Glenn Harrison

At 300+ ppm,

ANY C.O. detector would have prevented this , although the low level would have alarmed a lot faster. I'm still quite honestly amazed that thier daughter woke up to complain of feeling sick, and that any of them are alive. The customer went out Sunday as soon as he got released and bought a C.O. alarm, but as he said, "I guess it's like closing the barn doors after the animals are loose". I also told him to get another one so that he would have one in the basement and one for the bedrooms.

My quote did include a combustion air intake into the basement utility room due to the furn, W.H. and dryer being in the same room. Both furnaces I offered (82% and 93%) are capable of sealed air intake, but a sealed combustion on the W.H. would be almost imposible due to it's location from any outside wall, so I figure room combustion air is best.

I have to agree that this has to have been an ongoing problem, the furnace just finally got to a point of severly poor combustion that it caught up with them. I'm suprised this happened now when they were just using the furnace to take the chill out of the air, as opposed to back in January when it was COLD and the furnace was runing hard. It makes me wonder how long these people have been living in a Carbon monoxide environment, and what kind of physical damge it has done, especially to their daughter.

Glenn Harrison

I shouldn't say they CAN'T afford one,

as he said his credit was good so the 12 months same as cash financing should not have been a problem. I just kind of got the impression that paying for the furnace might be the problem. Now that I think about it, I'm not sure of why they are "holding off", other then they can due to the weather warming up. He did seem to be willing to go, until he called his wife at the hospital and the answer changed. Maybe she wants to price shop instead of going with my bid due to her not meeting me and getting to talk to me to realize all the things I did and said to make us the only comapny to go with. Maybe they don't like financing ad just want to save up and get it done later with o debt owed to anyone. ot being a master salesmen, I didn't pry that much into the objuection, ad I probably should have. I'm just glad that we all know what hapened and why, ad that it's being taken care of, even if that means no heat by shutting down the furnace.

I have to agree that there should be more assistance programs for those who absolutly can't afford new equipment. The ice thing aroud here is several of the townships around here do have programs to help the elderly on fixed incomes, but thast doesn't neccesarilly help everyone in need, and not every area has this kind of assistance.

As far as adveriseing them, I thik that's not being done so that only really needy people that HAVE to get furaces replaced will go looking for the funds, and of courese just like any goverment money, the funds are limited, and never enough.

Glenn Harrison, Residential Service Techician

Althoff Industries, Crystal Lake, Illinois

Althoff Industies Link

Mark Hunt

Now if that don't beat all!


His wife is sitting in a hospital lucky to be alive and she wants to shop around for a cheaper furnace?

OH BABY!!!

Mark H

To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

Glenn Harrison

Like I said, Maybe

she wanted to price shop> Maybe she did't want to make a decision due to being medicated from her broke ankle. Maybe she was half asleep ad could' think strait. I don't know. All I can say is he was ready to buy until he talked to his wife. The conversation they had I did not hear it really is none of my business. I can't hold a gun to their head and MAKE them buy a furnace. All I ca do is make them safe, make recomendations ad hope they will do all the right things, hopefully doing business with our comapny in the process. I would really hate to go back i a couple of years because they went with the low ball bid and ow I'm back fixing their screwed up install.

Bryan_5

Glen,
I dont think you need to be a master salesman to close this deal with out them getting other bids. Remember you said when the husband asked his wife she was at the hospital. She is under a lot of stress right now and all she cares about is her baby. Wait until next week and give them a call and ask how there child is. People really dont care how much you know until they know how much you care.
Bryan

Glenn Harrison

A valid point, Bryan

She has to be under a lot of stress, family almost killed, broken ankle, surgury, medication, therapy, and ow needs new furnace and water heater. That probably would be enough to put some people over the edge. As I said before, this will be followed up on util completion one way or the other.

Bryan_5

Glen,
Good to hear that. I think it is your duty to follow up to compeltion. Because if you dont this could very easily be put off until January. good luck I am sure this will have a happy result for everyone involved
Bryan

Glenn Harrison

I hope they don't put it off till January,

as it will be mighty cold since the furnace is disconnected.

Thanks, Bryan.

Glenn Harrison

Bill_14

In our town, the fire department will call the gas utility and the gas utility pulls the meter until a safe installation along with a city inspection is completed. The gas company is notified by the inspection department to return and set meter, light pilots, etc.

Glenn Harrison

Now that I think about it,

the gas company was never called. If they had then all appliance would have been tested and the meter would have been locked off. Maybe I'll write a politely worded letter to the city fire chief about this whole situation, the fact that the water heater was a prblem and why the gas co. was not called, as I know this F.D. has called the gas co. before for C.O. calls.

Glenn Harrison, Residential Service Techician

Althoff Industries, Crystal Lake, Illinois

Althoff Industies Link

spotts

Nice job Glenn.

It's been a couple of days. I hope they've given you the OK now. You did top knotch work for them, and after an ordeal like that I'd think you'd not only get the job but be invited over for Christmas dinner! (PS why do the threads keep slipping off to the right??? Is there a limit to the number of replys?)

Never mind. After I posted I see they slip back.

Glenn Harrison

Thanks, Spotts.

I unfortunately had a cold Wednesday and Thursday and Friday was quite busy so I didnt't get a chance to check the status with the office (shame on me), so I'll have to check Monday. I'm hoping they changed it this week since the weather went from beautiful to garbage very quickly, so it's got to be cold int there if they didn't. They might be at his mothers to, as she lives in the area.

As far as the posts slipping to the right, the new reply shifts one spot over from the post that is replied to, so everyone knows what reply goes to what post. In your case you decided to post a new thread (I think).

tombig

Glen

> I unfortunately had a cold Wednesday and Thursday

> and Friday was quite busy so I didnt't get a

> chance to check the status with the office (shame

> on me), so I'll have to check Monday. I'm hoping

> they changed it this week since the weather went

> from beautiful to garbage very quickly, so it's

> got to be cold int there if they didn't. They

> might be at his mothers to, as she lives in the

> area.

>

> As far as the posts slipping to the

> right, the new reply shifts one spot over from

> the post that is replied to, so everyone knows

> what reply goes to what post. In your case you

> decided to post a new thread (I think).

tombig

Glenn

I haven't checked this post since day one. Thanks for opening some eyes. CO detectors save lives! I'm gonna mail you something.
Tom

Glenn Harrison

I'll be watching for your e-mail, Tom. Thanks (nm)

October Home

Windows

> Great work Glenn!

>

> One cautionary note about

> opening windows. There are times when that will

> make the problem worse. I do not believe that

> this is the case in your situation.

>

> If you

> have a blocked flue passage and CO is spilling

> into the basement, open windows will allow the

> house to become the chimney and the flue products

> will move that way. Stack effect at work

> again.

>

> Sealed combustion appliances or power

> vented equipment can overcome negative pressures

> to a point. We use -50 pascals as our maximum

> allowable depressurization for power vented

> equipment.

>

> You should do as Timmie suggested

> and perform a worse case depressurization. This

> may be happening when other exhausts are running

> as well.

>

> Test, test, test!

>

> Mark H

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 238&Step=30"_To Learn More About This Contractor,

> Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A

> Contractor"_/A_



> One cautionary note about

> opening windows. There are times when that will

> make the problem worse. I do not believe that

> this is the case in your situation.

>

> If you

> have a blocked flue passage and CO is spilling

> into the basement, open windows will allow the

> house to become the chimney and the flue products

> will move that way. Stack effect at work

> again.

>

October Home

Windows

So, Mark:

Is it inappropriate (unsafe?) to tell a client to keep windows open when the furnace is running and there's a fire in the fire place?

Arlene

Mark Hunt

I would


tell a client to have the home tested to see what exactly happens when this is going on. Without testing you can never know.

A basement will typically be under negative pressure due to stack effect. As long as it is not TOO negative the atmospheric appliances in that area will vent correctly. Every time an exhaust fan is turned on, a fire is started, or even the fan on an air handling device comes on the pressures change.

We had an instance last year where a customer had his kitchen remodeled. He installed a commercial sized gas stove with a 1000cfm exhaust hood over it. Whenever that exhaust hood ran ALL of the combustion products from his boiler and his water heater poured into the house!

Now who would have thought that remodeling your kitchen could cause HUGE problems with your heating system?

I would also tell the customer to invest in low level CO monitors by CO Experts.

Mark H



To Learn More About This Contractor, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Contractor"

John G. Merritt

Good work

Hi Glenn!

Good work!!

John