Changes to Water Heaters

kevin

this will add $80.00 to the cost of a heater.
I have added this because someone was asking about it today...kpc

Unknown

July 1, 2003

many gas water heater manufacturers will be offering new FLAMMABLE VAPOR IGNITION RESISTANT designs. Does anyone have information on these and what affect it will have on future installations of underfired water heaters?

eric_2

Water heaters

From my understanding, all atmospheric water heaters 30,40 & 50 gallon must be manufactured with the new barrier by June or July of this year. You will be able to sell or install the old style until supplies run out. It's supposed to be about a $50.00 difference in price but that's yet to be seen. That's all I know for the moment.

Carleton Hecht

Every Manufacturer has their own design on these new water heaters - I don't know if underfiring will have any impact on performance, but why would you underfire one anyway?

[Deleted User]

I'm not sure...

but I think he was referring to the fact that the fire is under the tank, as opposed to being under a boiler with a coil in the tank.

What goes around comes around...When are the boiler manufacturers going to be required to comply, or is it OK to set gasoline fumes off with boilers, but not with water heaters???

Kinda reminds me of the cities response to double wall heat exchangers. It's not required for replacement on exisitng systems, but is required for new installations. So does this mean its OK to poison people in older apartment complexes with dirty boiler water, but not OK to poison people in the new apartments??

One of them thangs that makes you go HMMmmmmm....

ME

Heatermon

FVIR

Each manufacturer has its own version of "arrester" technology. Remember, American Appliance developed the first system and tried to get everyone to license it from them. Their units have been redesigned from the original and are currently on the market (50 gallon, natural gas with a 12 year warranty). The main problem manufacturers have to deal with is L.D.O. (Lint, Dust & Oil). With enough accumulation, they will clog up the air intakes. A.O. Smith/State water heaters recommend cleaning their filters monthly (no, I'm not kidding - MONTHLY). Rheem claims to have solved the LDO problem without cleanout required "filters", but if their arrester "activates" (closes off all air supply to burner chamber and stops gas flow) you will be required to replace the water heater AND it will NOT be covered under warranty (scary, isn't it?). The main component in all the manufacturers product is the activation device. This device is basically a temperature sensor that will activate when the temperatures inside the burner chamber (mostly below and away from the direct flame) elevate to 140-200 degrees celsius (285-400 F). This "fuse" is NOT resettable, and in some manufacturers' units is also NOT relaceable. According to the manufacturers, it will take a large amount of flamable vapor, or a VERY bad air supply and/or poor venting condition to activate the "fuse". We feel that you WILL see these "fuses" activating under poor venting conditions and you will need to check venting more carefully before installing these units. How are you going to respond to the customer who just paid you several hundred dollars for that new water heater that now has to be repaired - or even worse - REPLACED because the venting wasn't right? We forsee problems - just like the 1.6 gallon toilets when they first came out (Sorry your toilet doesn't flush right or come in a color that matches your bathroom, but it's the LAW) - that are going to test our skills and patience, but will eventually get solved. This just may be the ticket to get the "Handy Dan's" of the world out of installing water heaters and bring it back to the "professionals". Remember, Rheem sells their product under the "GE" name in the Home Depot nationally, and they are telling us that if "Homer" puts in a unit and the "fuse" activates the first time they turn it on, the unit is worthless and "homer" will have to try it again. I wonder how many times he'll try to replace that heater if he has to buy a new one everytime he fails. I remember when we were doing warranty service for American Appliance back in the 80's. They were selling out of one of our discount "clubs". One day, we had to investigate a bunch of "defects" that were returned to the store. They had a "Handy Dan" bring back 4 heaters that he claimed "leaked" on installation. After looking at the defects and talking to "Handy" we found out that everytime he hooked up a heater and fired it off he could see it "leaking in the flue and sizzling when it hit the burner" and then would un-hook unit and return it to the store. It wasn't too long before we started to see big "CONDENSATION" warnings on the heaters. Yes sir, it's going to be a whole new world come about September (that's when the water heater manufacturers predict the old style units will run out). The best advice I can give to you is "Know the differences between everyone's product and use the ones that BEST suits your needs". Good luck to you all.

Heatermon

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Unknown

Underfired is a term for the

burner under the water storage area. Not "underfiring" as to input. What we would call your conventional storage type water heater.

steve_6

bradford white

Met with the Bradford White rep. last week Looks like they have a nice set up. The're stating that their new defender heater is MAINTAINANCE FREE."No regular cleaning of air inlet openings or flame arrestor is required." It also has a resettable thermal switch. The're are no dimensional changes and no additional installation steps. He told us there would be about a $70.00 increase on a 40 gallon heater . check them out @ www.bradfordwhite.com

robert griggs

Had a meeting with the A.O. Smith rep

last week. He said that the biggest problem he forsees is the lack of combustion air for the burner, because once the filter builds up, it will have to be cleaned. A.O. Smith's filters are easily removeable- hope the homeowners don't take them off.

The other thing he said that will be a big change is no more changing of a thermocouple. Now you have to buy the whole package together- the thermocouple, pilot tubing, and spark ignitor, and attach it to the burner.

It will take some getting used to, especially when customers get sticker shock. The new heaters will increase in price by about 50 percent.

Unknown

Anyone have a copy

of ANSI Z21.10 2001? This is the standard that established this requirment for water heaters.

Sizzle

Sizzle

American Water Heater

about

Sizzle

American Water Heater

about

Unknown

Excellent article on FVIR Water Heaters

in Plumbing and Mechanical January 2003 issue on page 50.

Or go to www.pmmag.com editorial archive click on January 2003.

billygoat22

don't direct vent water heaters already protect from vapor ignition in basements, assuming thye're sealed well? I took out one last week was so tight there was 2" water in comb chamber. I can see how flame arrestors would work, but can temp switches react fast enough to prevent this, I assume its to prevent gasoline/ solvent vapors from igniting, if there's heat, isn't it too late already? gas burns at 50'/s about, so if took 1/4s to activate, flame would be 12' from heater already

Heatermon

Direct vents are NOT sealed combustion

So they will NOT protect against flamable vapor ignition. The new water heaters' "arrester plate" technology is designed to prevent the spread of flamable vapor ignition OUTSIDE the burner chamber. Vapors may go in, but a flame will not spread past these arrester plates and continue outside the chamber. That is why these heaters will "eliminate" fires due to flamable vapors rather than lessen their chances. It's going to be a more complicated, but safer product come July. I can't wait.

Heatermon

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Glenn Harrison

Are you talking about...

Direct vent or POWER vent. Last time I checked a Direct vent is sealed combustion using 100% outdoor air. Power (Induced) vent is still open combustion and will apply to this new code at a later date.

Glenn Harrison, Residential Service Techician

Althoff Industries, Crystal Lake, Illinois

Althoff Industies Link

Jackchips

Wouldn't keeping

gasoline and other comubustables away from the heater also eliminate the problem?

Sensible jury awards would also help. We just had a fellow awarded over $8.0 million from a bar because he continued to drink, crashed and is paralized from the arms down. Sad for him and his family but who's fault was it?

We will continue to come up with "safety" features because of people doing something wrong and other folks rewarding them.

Where will it end? Surely not at water heaters.

Unknown

Lawyers love

people who do dumb things. That is how they get rich.

Heatermon

Direct Vents do use outside air for combustion

But not necesarrily 100%. To be considered sealed combustion you have to have the unit COMPLETELY sealed and the current Direct Vent water heaters do not meet that definition. They may only allow 1-4% of the combustion air from sources other than the "direct vent" piping, but that 1-4% could be a flamable vapor and it will ignite and spread outside the burner chamber. That is why they still have warning instructions on these units to keep flamables (such as gasoline) away from these units also. That is why the "Direct Vented" water heaters will also have to meet the new standard, but not until July 2005. There is a difference between "Direct Vented" and "Sealed Combustion" don't get them mixed into one and the same.

Heatermon

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Glenn Harrison

O.K., I stand corrected

I had not heard that one before. I was always under the impression they were sealed combustion. The couple I have worked on have sealed burner doors and did not appear to have any combustion air leakage. I will have to pay more attention to this the next time I come accross one.

Unknown

Here it is Larry FVIR Water Heaters

discussion.

Steve Ebels

What sizes

Of water heaters does this new mandate cover? Just residential (define that) Or are commercial sizes going to have to change also? I'm thinking of the hundreds of commercial water heaters, 100 gl/100kbtu/ 180*F in dairy barns around here. Most are literaly covered in dust, lint and other debris floating through the equipment room and live under near constant negative pressure due to exhaust fans. I can only imagine........

Unknown

Steve I think it only

pertains to 30, 40 and 50 gallon tanks. I will check and post if correct.

Heatermon

July 2003 is the first phase

and covers 30, 40 & 50 gallon atmospheric vented appliances under 70,000 b.t.u.'s. If this goes according to plan (who's, I have no idea - actually it's the government's plan) ALL gas fired water heaters, both residential and commercial will eventually be tested to this new standard. From the timetables I've seen (and they have changed frequently) there will be new requirements up to the year 2010. So just get ready and stay informed as new information becomes available.

Heatermon

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