steam

steve_6

Does the return header have to be installed with swing joints to prevent the sections from cracking as in the supply header installation. Thanks, Steve

steve_6

steam header question????

Why do some residential boiler manufacturers specify a return header that ties both returns together. What is it's purpose?? thanks steve

Mark A. Custis

to make dry steam



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steve_6

mark , how does the return header make dry steam, if it's the return. It's full of water. Steve

Unknown

Never heard of a return header

Which manufacturers recommend this setup ? I'd like to take a look at their instructions if they have em online .

steve_6

return headers

peerless 61, and dunkirk D247, show it in there instructions. asked the supply house, they didn't know why it was called for. Emailed Dunkirk, have not got a response back yet.

Mark A. Custis

Steve:

Lets start over.

I am with you on a return header. Is not, all return, return. All return is not under water. I sold insurance in a past life and learned that the Hartford Steam Boiler Insurance Company, was into P.M.. They are the folks that came up with the "Hartford Loop", which if proporly exicuted, keeps water in the chest of the boiler, even if the returns are empty.

Or at least thats how I remember how it is to work.

Please take a hard long look at the dirrections for the unit. The near boiler piping becomes part of the boiler in most of the newer applications,(my insurance side says "Help us, as we may be litigated against by our brothers, while trying to keep them warm") and it should be followed as written.

Please be carefull.

Please look at the instructions again, and repost or modify ypur questions.

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[Deleted User]

he is asking a legitimate question

the dunkirk commercial boiler calls to put the return condensate in thru BOTH sides of the boiler via a connection to the hartford loop. its even called a return header....why,,, i have no clue but would love to know.
they also show it going flat from one side to the other around the back of the boiler. if swing joints are required on a steam header to keep from braking the sections, i cant for the life of me see why they are not asked for on the return header also...seems to me expansion is expansion, and pressure exerted is pressure exerted.

Mark A. Custis

I agree,

I don't have the knowledge to answer without more info. Is it it bad that I encourage his quest without answers? If so I will no longer post.

Mark

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Mark_10

D247 Piping

Please let me know if you get any info on the D247 piping; I’m about to redo a job someone else screwed up, and have not been able to get any help from the factory either. The local rep is no better. I would be curious what others think of this brand before I go to the trouble of re-piping.

tombig

Return Header

How 'bout they want to introduce an even amount of return from both sides of the heat exchanger? Makes sense to me.

[Deleted User]

yea, that was my first thought to

but the hartford connection is on one side of the boiler. so the flow would naturally favour that side.

steve_6

247

there's a picture of a bad install of a 247 on " any steam experts in utah, it's a long story"

+++knockdown boiler, went together easy, vesatile-can mount controls on either side of the boiler,
large 4" tappings, supply and return, larger water content, I think it was 25 gallons. 12 year warranty for residential applications good cumbustion readings 20 ppm co, 9 ppm O2, boiler water line pretty steady, easy to level, has 4 legs
----- kind of long 54 " I believe. We turned it sideways so it wouldn't stick out in the middle of the room, draft hood different looking,we'll post some pictures later.sections don't mechanically fasten to the base, just gets sealed to it with furnace cement. so once you set the boiler it's hard to move it for piping adjustments without breaking that seal.

Install went pretty well, like i said we'll post some pictures later. steve

Ben_3

Return header

I'm not totally sure what Dunkirk would say but if you notice that header must be = to the area of all the returns or larger. And this header is on the boiler side of the loop. It is my opinion that it is not so much equal flow to both sides of the block that they are going for because unless you oversize the pipe to the further side it will still favor the closest port to the loop. I believe that they are concerned about the water line. When large boilers like this one which have somewhat narrow sections the force of the steam leaving would probably push down on the water so hard that with only on connection hooked up it would rock the water line almost diagonal sure to cause overfilling and flooding. With connections on the both sides @ full size the steam would exert it's pressure fairly equally on both sides of the water line resulting in a much more stable water-line. But this is only my opinion and I would be curious to hear what dunkirk says.

Mad Dog

Don't be so sensitive Mark, we all go out on a limb sometimes

Mad Dog

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Mark A. Custis

Thanks

Well put. Must have been the timing on a stressful day.

I'm all better now.

Mark

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Unknown

Ahh , now I get it

After reading all the posts . I think my memory is getting bad - just turned 34 . But we recently installed a commercial Peerless with a return header - it required we twin in the 2 lower tappings in 3 inch . Heres a pic of the piping .

[Deleted User]

nice work Ron, yup thats the puppy

i can see the return header but my question was why they showed it flat around the boiler. i would just assume it also expands and would exert force against the sections. yours actually has a swing joint at the back of the boiler, and i put a swing joint in mine. especially on gravity return i would think its what, 20-40 degrees cooler than the steam, but still a heck of a lot warmer than when installed and pulled up tight. maybe i'm overthinking this one?

[Deleted User]

its a fine boiler

i like them okay...

Mark A. Custis

I too overthought

Sure now I get it, but I just could not the other day. Maybe because "header" is on top. Maybe is should be called a return manifold.

Mark

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peter desens

Dunkirk D-247

I hope this helps answer some of your questions.

As a manufacturer we always have to recommend the absolute best way of doing things. Perhaps not always the most practical, but none the less the best way.

I'm sure everyone would agree that returning condensate to both sies of the boiler is best, particullarly when dealing with a boiler that can grow to over eleven feet long (D247-3000 @ 3,000,000 BTU/Hr.).

At approximetely 4 gal/min. of return condensate for the D247-3000, its best to "feed" both sides of the boiler w/condensate. There is certainly no harm in doing so.

If anyone has any questions regarding the Dunkirk product, please feel free to contact our Dunkirk division at 1-877-386-5475, or our the world headquarters of ECR International at 1-800-325-5479.

Peter Desens
Technical Services Manager
ECR International - Dunkirk Boielers

[Deleted User]

that seems to be the question i

cant get answered also.

Boilerpro_3

I am doing mine with swing joints....

Have a pumped return and want to make sure that the boiler isn't shocked when cold condensate comes in pretty fast. I'd also suspect that if that pumped condensate came in one side, the boiler would stop boiling on that side for a period and cause the water line to tip. I am making the connection to the return header from the pump at the with a centered bullheaded tee to keep flow balanced to both sides. I suspect that this is the best place to connect the outlet of the Hartford loop too on gravity return. Hope to be installing one of these on gravity soon too. Just a few thoughts from a newer steam installer. Hope Steamhead posts his thoughts on this.

Boilerpro

peter desens

Return Header

Steve,

There is no need to install swing joints on the return header. While there will be a temperature difference as the system heats up, and the expansion/contraction associated with it, it is not nearly as severe and immediate of a change as what the supply header experiences.

Pete Desens
ECR International - Dunkirk Boilers

Steamhead

You've nailed it, BP

though Peter says swing joints aren't necessary on a return header, it sure can't hurt to use them. Can you say "cheap insurance"?

Waiting to see the "after" pics!

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