The Perfect Hydronic System

Dennis Bellanti_2

Looking into the future, I envisioned a system that would supply heat to a building at the same rate it was losing it. In my opinion, that is the perfect system. I would use a high mass delivery system (tubing in concrete), that way I could use a condensing boiler. I would invent a control for that boiler that would work on outdoor reset, provide full modulation to the burner and vary the speed of the radiant circulator.

My control idea is that if there is a low demand for heat you could not only lower the boiler input, but slow the circulator down to achieve a broad delta T providing better possibilities of condensing. As the heat demand increases you could ramp up the burner and pump to tighten the delta T and assure adequate heat delivery. It would "learn" use patterns and fine tune the system.

I would also use non-electric zone valves and T-stats on continuous circulation to constantly "spoon feed" the proper heat into each zone. Simple, reliable, effective.

I also think this system would have to be well balanced. Not flow balanced, but BTU balanced. In other words if you have a consistent ratio of heat provided to heat lost, you would not have to raise the water temp for a high heat loss zone. (Design the system to properly heat all zones with one temperature.)

I think the technology resources are out there...we just haven't tried it. WHAT DO YOU THINK!

Mark A. Custis

You can do it NOW

I think I would go low mass.

Mark

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Dennis Bellanti_2

It's all available except the control. Do you know of something out there that will 1.) modulate the burner, 2.) operate a variable speed circ. both based on delta T AND outdoor temp?

Henry_4

Yes

Viessmann WB2 8-32
www.viessmann.com

chris smith

control

any good plc controler or building management system will do all this for you as well as, control lighting,power consumption[manage peak demand] and a/c, air handlers, ehaust fans, alarms, access control excetra, ge and alan bradley make great plc's i have one managing an ice rink, delta, trane,seamans, invensys, honeywell all make building management systems,i have two buildings running with invensis, the key is programing and knowing what you want to do, a ge with 36 points is under $500 with software,but you need to pay extra for programming http://www.opto22.com/
http://www.geindustrial.com/cwc/products?pnlid=2&id=ctrlov
http://www.deltacontrols.com/home.html
there are lots of companys out there with this stuff, delta is bac net, invensys is lonworks, ge and opto are programmed using ladder logic

chris smith

paradise [its warming up] porter maine

hot_rod

Very close

to ideal. Probably an area or climate dependant decision but, I, too, feel low mass with good transfer plates to be a better match for it's ability to ramp up and down in an hour or two.

And I'm still on the fence regarding outdoor reset. There are some cons. I'm anxious to see what Bob Tonner has up his sleeve that "will make outdoor reset obsolete"

I agree variable output pumps on the distribution side would be a great plus. It would make PAB obsolete on multi zone valve systems also.

I'll bet it is all closer than we think, in the residential market products.

hot rod

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Mark A. Custis

veriable speed injection HR

I love variable speed air handlers. I can hardly wait to start using the pumps. I had considered piping in two boilers at city hall on injection, but had a problem with two unit vs outdoor reset. It is no longer an emergency so I can go looking for controls.

On the home front I just may go get a pump to play with in both the hot tub heat X and the new low mass radiant that you convinced me shall go into the new family room.

With Air the motors are sort of programed, what control interface determins pump speed and therefor GPM?

Mark

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Steve Minnich_1

Aren't you

trying to reinvent the wheel? The technology is already there. GO FOR IT!

Steve

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Jack Smith

Wirsbo 201 duo mix and B&G nrf pumps

Steve Ebels

Most if not all

Of what you describe is already on the market. It's called a Vitodens. Variable speed pump based on outdoor temp. Check. Modulating burner. Check. Condensing capable. Check. Built in pressure bypass. Check. Outdoor reset + indoor feedback capable. Check. You're thinking right along the same lines as Viessmann's engineers are Dennis.

As far as high mass goes.....Yes that's one way. A well designed and installed plate system will almost match it tempwise though and give you faster response times. The boiler will still be in condensing territory 95% of the time.

We have a home running on just such a system, Vitodens and plates on 8" centers throughout. All loops were kept to 200' or less in length to insure even temps to the floor. The heating curve is set at .6 and is doing nicely even during this fridgid winter. I think we can drop it to a .5 with no problem. Most of the time this thing has been running SUPPLY temps of 125* or below. A couple weeks ago I checked it with outdoor temp at -24* and the average boiler temp was 146*.

What more could you want?

Ted_5

Vitodens has it all

It has every thing you asked for,this is not an adder!It's
like Rago "it's in there" just plug it in and program.The
pump in it is a weather responsive,true varieble

Ted_5

Vitodens has it all

It has every thing you asked for,this is not an adder!It's
like Rago "it's in there" just plug it in and program.The
pump in it is weather responsive,true variable speed from
0 rpms to 2700 rpms not a freac.driven.

Vitodens 200 6-24 and 8-32 have these pumps

Ted

Dennis Bellanti

Perfect System

The thing that seems to be missing in all of the current control systems is the ability to vary the speed of the heat delivery circulator Based on the Delta T of the system AND modulating the supply temp , both based on outdoor temp. On a warm day you could supply low temperatures and a very broad Delta T (40 maybe 50 degrees) therefore creating a condensing situation most days of the heating season.