Conundrum/radiant over slab

Wayco Wayne

I have a customer who has a sun room we had planned to put a radiant floor in. The room was a step down into the sun room onto an existing monolith pour slab.
we were going to tear out the tile and the sliding glass door and the windows and reinstall new raising the thresholds 1.5 inches to allow for 1/4 in insulation and then 3/8 inch pex, concrete pour and then new ceramic tile. By the time all of the construction was done it was discovered that the existing slab was not level. We now have available, 1.5 inches on one end and 3/4 inches on the other. Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated.

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hot_rod

It's the 3/4\"

end that will be hard to accomodate. I'm not sure you could get insulation, underlayment, backer board and tile in that thickness. Which one do you want to leave out?

Dan Peel's tube in mudset method might work, if the tile setter is comfortable with a 3/4" mudset. Did you run calcs without underslab and perimeter edge insulation? Can you meet the load even wasteing the energy to these loss areas? Sunrooms can throw you a loop sometimes, when the heat flux is calculated.

hot rod

[Deleted User]

Nows the time to do it right...

grab a jack hammer and get rid of the original slab so you can put some real insulation down and keep the Johnny Jump Ups at bay during the winter. Otherwise, the HO's gonna have an expensive eternal flower garden where the foundation meets the dirt.

Just a thought... Dust can be cleaned up, a utility bill lasts forever.

ME

Doug Wagoner

Jack hammers and monolithic pours

seem incompatable to me. Where do you hang the walls while the floor is being repoured. Would it be possible to saw the concrete 6" or even 12" inside the wall and remove the inner portion and leave the walls supported on the edge. It might be unstable unless there is rebar that can be exposed to tie the wall supports back to the new pour.

[Deleted User]

Been there, done that....

It's not a pretty picture, but then anytime a jack hammer is involved, its NOT pretty. I'd cut about 6" away from the wall and work inwards from there. Of course, I'm not a structural engineer, and it would probably be a wise idea to get one involved prior to firing up the cement saws...

ME

Rock Solid Restoration_3

I agree, bite the bullet and get that slab outta there. Then you can put in your 2" of insulation and pour back a nice 4" slab and have all the room you need for your tubing and some nice wire reinforcing to control cracking.

Even at a solid 1.5" that slab will crack to hell without reinforcing and probably even with reinforcing. I don't know if there are other issues that would prevent you from doing this(can you post a picture), but the way you are talking about sounds risky at best. 1/4" insulation over a natural heat sink won't do a whole lot.

If I can rip out my basement slab and take it out in 5 gallon buckets to do the right job you can rip out the sunroom slab.

Rock Solid Restoration_3

I agree, bite the bullet and get that slab outta there. Then you can put in your 2" of insulation and pour back a nice 4" slab and have all the room you need for your tubing and some nice wire reinforcing to control cracking.

Even at a solid 1.5" that slab will crack to hell without reinforcing and probably even with reinforcing. I don't know if there are other issues that would prevent you from doing this(can you post a picture), but the way you are talking about sounds risky at best. 1/4" insulation over a natural heat sink won't do a whole lot.

If I can rip out my basement slab and take it out in 5 gallon buckets to do the right job you can rip out the sunroom slab.

[Deleted User]

Man-o-man...

guess you won't have to worry about that baby cracking, eh...

Nice job. When do we get to see the "driving force"?

ME

antman

That foreman in the last pix seems to be pretty unhappy the pour is not completed yet.


Ant

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hot_rod

The poor slob

that tries to take that slab out next time will need more than buckets! Nice job on the tube and bar install

hot rod

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Steve Minnich_1

How about

radiant ceiling? 1/2" of Wirsbo Quik Trak and 3/8" sheetrock. It'll work just as well with half the labor.

Steve

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Rock Solid Restoration_3

If you mean the powerplant, That's when I'll have to defer to one of you wet-heads(I'm only a wet-head wannabe).I still don't know wether I'm going to stick with oil or switch to gas.

I think the ultimate would be to hook up a gas boiler and an oil burner in series, both slightly undersized so that one could pick up the slack of the other on really cold days. That way you could give one boiler priority based on the rates of oil and gas. That way you don't have to marry the oil company or the gas company.You can just fool around with one of them behind the other one's back.

Rock Solid Restoration_3

That's not the foreman, that's the inspector, and he's a real ball breaker.

Rock Solid Restoration_3

That's epoxy coated 4"x4"/4gauge wire mesh. Total overkill, but it was leftover from a job so i figured I may as well use it on my house. By the way those plastic tracks from slant fin are real handy for keeping the tubing in line.The insulation is one 2" plus one 1" layer of foil-faced polyisocyanurate.

hot_rod

Those Slant Fin tracks

also help keep the tube up in the slab, where it really works best! And serves as "bar chair" keeping the rebar in the ideal spot in the slab. Nice dual purpose touch!

hot rod

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Rock Solid Restoration_3

You got it. Normally, I would have used rebar chairs to keep the wire up and then tied the tubing to the wire, but I didn't have any chairs so I came up with this idea and I like it even better.Necessity is the mother of invention.

But your absolutely right about getting that wire up off the bottom. I can't stand seeing those pictures when the wire is laying on the ground, it doesn't do any good there. Supposedly they pull it up as they pour, but I think that step gets missed alot during the chaos of a pour.

Wayco Wayne

I was thinking

is there any way to build the floor up using sleepers with bubble insulation in under the 3/8 tubing in between the plywood. May have to level the floor up to 3/4 all the way around with a leveling compound. Use 1/2 inch plywood topped with 1/4 lawan(sp?) and theres my 3/4. He then has room for ceramis tile on top. Wadayathink. WW

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Steve Minnich_2

Will my suggestion work?

My thinking is that it will. The ceiling doesn't have to heat the entire pour--just the upper surface. And the use of continuous circ. with outdoor reset should help with temp. fluctuations. Am I right?

I plan on doing this in my own home in the spring. I have a raised a ranch with the lower level being a 4" slab and 50% of the walls being 100% exposed.

I have floor coverings of ceramic tile, hardwood floors, and carpeting--and therin lies most of the beauty--I can for the most part, run one temperature and not have to worry about flowers in the winter.

Whatta ya think?

Steve

Steve Minnich_2

Will my suggestion work?

My thinking is that it will. The ceiling doesn't have to heat the entire pour--just the upper surface. And the use of continuous circ. with outdoor reset should help with temp. fluctuations. Am I right?

I plan on doing this in my own home in the spring. I have a raised a ranch with the lower level being a 4" slab and 50% of the walls being 100% exposed.

I have floor coverings of ceramic tile, hardwood floors, and carpeting--and therin lies most of the beauty--I can for the most part, run one temperature and not have to worry about flowers in the winter.

Whatta ya think?

Steve

Steve Minnich_2

moving it back to

to the top. Very interested in others opinions, thoughts, ideas, etc. on my thought concerning radiant ceiling.

We rarely ever discuss the entire realm of radiant panels. It's always radiant floor. In fact, most everyone refers to it as RFH. I think it should be called RPH. Just by using that term more often it opens up new ideas and creates fresh new ways to approach our jobs. It makes it more exciting to me to think outside the box and come up with solutions that my competitors aren't doing.

There is an entire subdivision in affluent neighborhood in Elmwood Park, IL that is composed of homes that have 50-60 yr old radiant ceilings in which the homeowners(the ones I've dealt with) love their heating systems.

In theory, and as far as I can see in the practical world, radiant ceilings are just as effective as radiant floors. Radiant heat is radiant heat! The Sun may not be a perfect example, but I know on even milder summer days, we've all learned how to dance when walking barefoot across many different surfaces.

Come on. Jump outside the box and share your opinions. Lets make this thing fun.

Steve, Radiant Comfort Systems(Tinman on sheetmetal related site):)

hot_rod

Mr Radiant Ceiling

Tom Tesmar has been posting lots of info on his favorite systems at the RPA website. It may be worth a trip over there.

A very outspoken afficionado and installer of ceiling radiant. Catch his radiant ceiling seminar at the RPA this May.

hot rod

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Steve Minnich_1

I've read some

of Tom's stuff and I like it. It makes sense to me. I've installed many radiant ceilings and serviced homes with the same, and I find them to be very comfortable and efficient, as do my customers.

Come on Wallies--I know you're an opinionated bunch wetheads, let me have it. Come on, I'm the Tinman--I have no heart, you can't hurt me.:)

Steve, Radiant Comfort Systems

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Wayco Wayne

Steve

I cannot put a radiant ceiling in this space. Do you have any help for me on my problem with the floor? WW

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Wayco Wayne

Hot Rod

Am interested in this "Dan Peels Mortar method. Could I put down some 1/2 foam and then fill with mortar and tile? Tubing would be close on the 3/4 end but nice and buried on the 1.5 inch end. Hmmm.

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Paul Rohrs

ICY Foam Insulation .....hey Rock Solid.....

Isn't ICY foam an "open cell" insulator that has a higher rate of compression? I thought we were supposed to stay away from that as under slab insulation?

PR

Rock Solid Restoration

Polyisocyanurate

As far as I know polyisocyanurate is closed cell. It also has the highest R-value per inch than other foam boards I've seen. It also has a layer of aluminum foil on its face to reflect the radiant heat.

Let me know if you've heard otherwise.

Rock Solid Restoration

radiant cieling

What about my cold toes?

Paul Rohrs_2

my mistake

My mistake, I thought you were referring to the ICY foam that is the two-part process, chemical reaction that expands which is used to insulate exterior walls of houses.

PR

Steve Minnich_2

Again, radiant heat

is radiant heat. The ceiling will warm your floor. Hot air rises. Heat travels in all directions and always to cooler surfaces. It's physics, it cannot be denied unless you have a table covering all your floors.:)

Steve, Radiant Comfort Systems

Rock Solid Restoration

No problem, I appreciate the concern.

You did get me a bit nervous there for a minute.

Rock Solid Restoration

I guess what you're saying is the heat from the ceiling will radiate its heat to the floor below.

I do understand the physics(I read Dan's book after all), but i still have a hard time believing that it will have the same effect.

Then again, it's extremely possible that I'm totally wrong.

Is there a big savins in labor putting it in the ceiling?

kevin_5

Floor vs Ceiling

I have some of both in my home. The radiant ceiling is great...but not as great as radiant floor. Sitting here at my computer, the desk seems to block the radiation from my lower body. The warm feet feeling is just not there like it is with the warm floor. Wirsbo instructs installers to make sure people know there is a difference. As great as radiant ceiling is, I don't believe it's as nice as radiant floor. If it were, infrared radiant tubes in shop ceilings would definately be the way to go as opposed to in-floor. What do you think? Kevin

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