new hydronic or old forced hot air ?

ScottMP

I have a customer who has a small cottage on his property. Its sits about 20 yards from the Atlantic ocean. It froze this winter ( shocking ), and has had all the sheetrock removed. Actually the water removed it the workman just picked it up and threw it away.

Heres the question ...

The hot air system has an old Bryant ( circa 1960 ) and could use a few more ducts. JCA wants to have us put in a new hydronic system with panel rads and glycol. Sitting on the water and being a renatl unit, I am not so sure a new hot air unit ( gasp ) with a few new ducts might not be the less troublesome unit for the customer.

I have no problem telling the customer of the benifits of a comfortable well designed hydronic system. But after having a couple of houses which were like boats in the ocean, as far as thier location is concerned, it just got me thinking whats better here.

Whada ya tink ?

Scott

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Mike Kraft

What Do I Think?

Dont get rid of Chris!

cheese:)

hot_rod

I'm not sure

a modern day furnace is less problematic than a modern day boiler??

With that in mind I would be tempted to go simple, basic. Maybe even a standing pilot with a relight kit installed.

Heck, for a couple hundred bucks extra, throw in a 40 gallon electric tank as a buffer tank and connect it (electrially) as a back up to the gas or oil primary sourse.

Depending on the building size 4500 watts ( @14,000 BTU/hr.) may be enough to keep the place 35F, in the event of a fuel outage. Although should the electrical power go down, for extended periods, really doesn't matter what type of heater you have

hot rod

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Boilerpro_3

Have you thought of steam....

with millivolt controls? You get the comfort of radiant heat but the only water is in the boiler. Should something go wrong, you probably won't be faced with a system freeze up. I do agree, that this is a place where forced air is appropriate. Energy usage is probably not a big concern and occupancy is short so comfort is not as important. Maybe you could do a forced air radiant floor!


Boilerpro

ScottMP

problems

HR brings up a good point. New Gas furnace can be a control nightmare, with all the limit controls and preasure switches.

My thinking with problems is more along the lines of freezing problems. Glycol would reduce that concern.

Panel rads, constant circ, and a Buderus boiler with indirect ??

Scott

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hot_rod

I like your thinking

Of course you can easily protect the heating side from freeze up, buy you still have the plumbing to concern with. Maybe in the remodel you could make it easy for him to drain down or blow down the domestic water pipes, and show him p trap freeze protection procedures.

If the cottage is behind his residence, maybe a freeze alarm could be wired to alarm at his home. This was a common feature in the winter, second homes we did in Utah. Typically a temperature sensor under the kitchen sink would "call" the alarm service provider.

hot rod



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Steve Ebels

You're reading my mind Scott

There is no simpler or more trouble free system than panel rads, TRV's, constant circ with reset. Buderus with a 2107 control would be as bulletproof as you could get. Add the glycol and stress to importance of annual service to the HO. Use a G-124, (assuming it's gas) and keep the pilot/ignitor assembly in good condition. Can't think of anything in the same league as far as reliability is concerned. Go for it.

As far as a furnace goes, I just don't see that the reliablilty is as good as a simple boiler. It surely hasn't been the case in my humble experience! Be creative if they want backup heat. (chances are they will after this episode) Hot Rod has a good idea as far as tying in to the boiler. We have installed a lot of those unvented gas heaters for this purpose. (I don't recommend them as a permanent heat source for safety reasons but as a backup that doesn't need electricity to run they work well)

I'd also be concerned about gunk growing in the ductwork in a high humidity environment such as this palce is in. If flooding is a concern I'd say in that circumstance either system is likely junk anyhow.

Have fun my friend

[Deleted User]

and DON'T...

connect the system to the potable water make up. Even if you pull the handle, someone, some day will turn it on and you'll be back to square one. Use a glycol pig to maintain pressure during initial deaeration.

I like the use of a small water vacuum to winterize the potable water systems. It makes sure there is no water left in the bellies of the pipes. It's what I use to winterize my mountain home and it takes me all of 10 minutes to get all the water out.

ME

Rick Price

water vacumm

Mark - would you be willing to elaborate on this way of removing water? I use compressed air but it is very time consuming on system not set up for it.

Steamhead

BP, You're Right- Steam would be great here

an Orifice Vapor system using Baseray radiation would give maximal comfort with minimal moving parts and minimal danger of freezing, and would not take up much space. It could also be drained out easily if need be, and you'd never have to worry about antifreeze.

The boiler should have a probe-type low-water cutoff since no one would be there to blow a float-type unit down every week.

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[Deleted User]

Water vacuum.

In my mountain home, I have a small heated mechancial room in the basement. Where the water service enters the building, I have the main cutoff valve, and immediatley after, a full port 1" ball valve. I also have the hot water heater tank outlet connected via a 3/4" ball valve to this same vacuum branch.

This is where I connect the water vac. I open the ball valve with the vac hose attached to it, then turn the vac on, and go up stairs and start with the furthest point of use, opening the faucets and letting the vacuum pull the air and water back down to the basement. When that branch is done, it gets shut off and I go to the next closer branch, and so on and so forth until I get to the toilets, and do them last. I then go around and pour RV antifreeze and cooking oil into the p-traps, and the back tank of the toilet to protect those devices from freezing and breaking. THe oil keeps the trap seal from evaporating and allowing icky sewer gasses into the home.

Oh yeah, don't forget to drain the rinse hose at the kitchen faucet or you'll be replacing it and possibly the faucet in the spring. Been there, done that more than twice.

ME

J.C.A.

Thanks Cheese !

This is probably the nicest placed "cottage" I've worked on . The next stop, Pourtugal . Well, Kettle Island is a gunshot away , but the only residents are seagulls(see: feathered rats) and some snowy egrets . Look to the south and views of the skyline of Boston and the outline of the famous Cape of Cod .

The only reason I sort of like the air choice is that the fuel is propane and keeping a heater going all winter with an empty space will cost a fortune . The other thoughts were along the line of Marks'. Since all the water piping is now exposed, make it easy to just drain the whole joint and winterize it quickly .This place literally hangs right over the ocean , and the wind was blowing a gale and a half the day I was out there . Water from the rock spray hitting the windows about 40 or so feet up the cliff .
It will also be quite the task just getting a boiler out to the place and into what is the basement . About 100 yards from the house with lawn the whole way .(do you mind if we drive across your lawn sir?)

I'll keep the faith that wetter heads will prevail . Chris

ScottMP

looks like were

Heading towards a Boiler with panels and an indirect.

I'll let you know.

Thanks Guys

Scott


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Eric

Why did it freeze pipes?

Did old furnace not start or was thermostat off or was all power off?

Do they typically heat building or turn down thermostat?

If they turn off thermostat having a boiler or having a furnace doesn't matter.

If the plan is to winterize. Then provide plumbing changes for winterization.

Why glycol? If boiler is going to be on low limit why use gylcol. Spend money on a dial out alarm.


Check out wessels. They make a nice packaged gycol makeup system and holding tank. We are using them all the time now up here (alaska).

Mark A. Custis

I did a house

on Kelleys Island, in Lake Erie. (Cheese, thats the blue water just north of my house) Plumbed all the domestic lines to drain. Pulled the well plump and moved the check valve inside the house. Drain valves on either side. Water back to the well, dump the house, then did the ME thing to the rest. (Mark, I feel better, that I not the only one to froget the kitchen faucet hose) I did add a pressure switch to the hot water tank so that if visitors could not follow the dirrections, I didn't have to replace the tank eleiments.

Worked very well. 20 minuets and out the door to the ferry. Ugliest job I ever did, and you'll never see a phote here in the land of neat, square, plumb and straight.

Just a thought.

Mark

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antman

Watercop

For domestic water protection I recommend WaterCop.

Very nice, they have a "freezehound" sensor you can install to shut off water in the event no one is home, Can't put a price on that protection.

www.watercop.com


Hope his helps Scott, Ant

Good luck with the heating sale.

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ScottMP

Antman

I have alot of summer customers. Is this a product you have used for a while ?

I checked out the website and looks like it could be a good product for us. Any wholesale pricing for contracters ?

Thanks for the headsup.

Scott

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antman

Scott,

One of my suppliers started carrying them a couple of months ago, It caught my attention, so over this COLD winter on a couple of freeze ups where my customers had some nice floods, i was able to sell a couple. Installs very easy, sensors are fm frequency if i remember correctly real nice, If you can't locate a local supliier for ya I'd be willing to get ya some and send them to ya. email me if you want me to get you the cost.

Ant

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BillW@honeywell

Network Zoning would work here,too!

Regardless if you go with FAH&C or a wet system, consider the Networked Zoning system with a Telephone Access Module. It will call you or your service provider if a preset limit is reached. Available as a kit for 2 or 3 zones from any Honeywell distributor.

Tom_13

forced air vs. radiant hot water

Building a new home in Rochester, New York area and trying to decide what would be better for heating. I have been reading up on both systems pro and con. Need some "guidance" in making a decision.

Mark A. Custis

I use both

My wife and kid are both allergic to all kinds of stuff, so I run the tin work fan with air cleaner and UVc lights 24/7.

Heat pump backed by 80% furnace is primary. Boiler does garage, basement, hot tub and DHW. It will also take care of the low mass radiant in the family room to be.

Want more?

You might want to repost.

Good luck,

Mark

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