Working with DIYer

bruce pirger

I have a question for you guys. If a DIYer approached you about installing a boiler, near boiler piping, and plumbing the "wall" of pumps, valves, etc. and connecting with his already installed tubing runs and manifolds, would you run like the wind or continue listening?

What if he had a clue about what he was doing...planned for primary/secondary piping, variable speed mixing for the radiant, outdoor/indoor/slab set point contol using a Tekmar 363? What if he didn't have the attitude that he knew more than you, but that he understood the basics and really was interested in learning more? What if his attitude in doing the work himself wasn't so much to save big $$$ but to understand what it is in his house? What if he held you NOT responsible in any way for temperature control/comfort of the home. What if he had put R-10 insulation underneath his slab, used 5 300' loops of 5/8" Wirsbo in the slab, and used 6 250' lengths of 1/2" Wirsbo with extruded plates and R-13 foil faces insulation under the second floor?

(edited) I should add, heat load calc shows 55,000 BTU/HR for 2500 sq.ft new home (DIYer did the calcs). Worked mainly from Wirsbo Design Manual and John Seiganthaler's book (I always kill his name...sorry Sieggy). Primary heat is indoor woodstove...so indoor feedback and slab set point should prevent "blow out") And homeowner would assume all responsibily for "comfort"...just realizes he can't do and doesn't know everything...although he's built the rest and looking good. (un-edit)

Would you be interested, or run like the wind? I guess you have read this far...

I'm that DIYer homeowner. I'm heading to a local homeshow this weekend in the Binghamton area and I'm hoping to find someone I can trust to install a boiler and plumbing for me. There's no contractors listed on here within a 100 miles of me...so I'm in the dark a bit.

I think I can tell what's quality work and what isn't...thanks to you folks...and I hope folks will be willing to work with me.

Thought I'd ask before I jump into the fire tomorrow.

Thanks!

Mark A. Custis

Bruce:

I get beat up on this all of the time.

I'd take your work.

I will never have to get up in the middle of the night and visit you.

I would have to check out your calcs. If it don't work my butts on the line.

I just posted a few photos last night to a manifold question. My customer, a lawyer by education and a damn good GC by inclination. I designed this job and did reffrigeration and some sheet metal, but my guy did the work I show off.

Good luck,

Mark

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Mark A. Custis

If you can do this:

I'll design /build with you.

I don't like the mixed metals, but my guy had an IOU out and took what he could against his bill. Up and running first full winter 3,500 squar feet with just 96,000 BTUH and DWH.

Design includes make up air for three wood burning fireplaces, two radiant zones, two AH with DX cooling, (condensors are in the woods 50 ft from house), rezoned with ARZEL with out changing the exsiting Sheet metal

Hey, hotrod is doing a science experiment in his shop, I'll put that stuff in too.

Mark

ps. I reread your post and will fit you in a busy spring

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PJO

Bruce, you're wearing my shoes...

from five years ago. I wish the Wall was around back then.

Differences: 1) I was given the heatloss by the builder's HVAC guy...it was based on FHA, so it was about 20% too high, 2) I did install the tubing/insulation/plates myself (with two others), also did the A/C ducts as a helper with another guy, but I put baseboard upstairs.

Similarities: 1) I am responsible for the comfort, warranties (lost a transformer on my Beckett after one season but that was it), and any other problems. This includes management complaints when the t-stat is lowered :-) 2) I paid a tech to run all of the near-boiler piping and electrical hook-ups, then paid another to fire it and test it (first tech didn't test).

I only have a couple of regrets...of which I am (finally) taking care of this summer. My tech is in my boiler room once a year to test and bless, and I wouldn't have it any other way. While I did save money (not counting my sweat equity), I paid fair money to all involved...including my friend who got the equipment... I both learned a lot and am proud of my system. It certainly wouldn't hold a candle to some of the beauties posted here, but it's not bad.

Good luck with your endeavor...plan, plan, plan...then bounce an idea or two around the Wall. You will not regret it.

Take care, PJO

hot_rod

I'll involve DIYer's

to whatever skill and comfort level they feel good about. Generally insulation and tube laying. Had several "gun up" the transfer plates and do all the drilling.

Need to set out clear ground rules, have control of the calcs and design info, and work out the dollar amounts.

I have all positive experienc es working with DIYer's, met some very interesting folks and heard some great stories. Since I am a one man shop it's always welcome to have an extra set of hands.

Properly undertaken it is a win for all But you need to draw some lines.

hot rod

Mark A. Custis

Thanks (hr)

Whats up with the low mass stuff? Any news? The new Beckett Burner to be is awesome.

Mark

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bruce pirger

Thanks for the replies...and please keep 'em coming. I think that's exactly what I am looking for, a tech to do the installation, filling, and initial firing...and also some "overseeing" of the general design and idea. I certainly will NOT hold anyone responsible for anything I did. I assume this will be the biggest "problem" to overcome, but I'm not out to cause problems or write another horror story. While I don't expect to have the masterpieces that are posted here, I don't think my first 50 solder joints should be in my heating system either! LOL I love to learn...BUT...like to think I know when/were.

Sad there's no one apparently local registed on The Wall. And you folks here on The Wall are great!

I figure if they start looking at me funny when I talk about primary/secondary, variable speed mixing, Tekmar, etc. I'll just keep walking. Tiger loops...I've never ever heard of them before, never ever seen one before (but I have seen two pipe systems!)...so that'll really win points. LOL

Thanks again to all!

Mike T., Swampeast MO

As long as...

...you REALLY mean this,

"What if he didn't have the attitude that he knew more than you, but that he understood the basics and really was interested in learning more? What if his attitude in doing the work himself wasn't so much to save big $$$ but to understand what it is in his house? What if he held you NOT responsible in any way for temperature control/comfort of the home."

DO THOUGH be willing to pay top dollar for that work you do not choose to do yourself!!!!

The ones NOT willing to do the job are those most likely NOT to understand it themselves.

To me this was your MOST important statement, "What if his attitude in doing the work himself wasn't so much to save big $$$ but to understand what it is in his house?" I seriously doubt that anyone here will NOT understand WHY this is important.

Mark A. Custis

Bruce:

Iam well over fifty years old and just tuesday march 4, 2003 learned what a tiger loop (brand Name) is. Ohio is differrent, ask my buddies in PA. (yes Alan, I can spell it coorectly, MAYBE), so I feel your desire. How far away can anything or anyone be today.

What a great day to be alive.

Mark

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bruce pirger

HI Mike: Thanks...LOL. Yes, I am sure that I could fly Hot Rod or anyone in to do my job...if the price was right! But of course there are limits.

That's a good point and question. My thinking is it'd take about 1 day to do a system "layout" plan, a day in the shop to build most of the "wall" (I think it can largely be prefabbed in the shop...but maybe not), and then a day or so to actually install at my place.

So that's say 3 days of work...throw in another for good measure and silly things (like the fact I'm out in the boonies) and to actually fire and run the system...so 4 days of someones time. (And I think that's generous...is it?)

So that's, guessing here, $2000-$3000 for time?

Parts seem to be right around $4500 from my looking (this is boiler, indirect, and plumbing (valves, pumps, etc....controller is already onsite as is tubing and etc.)...so I'm guessing maybe a $6-$8K job? Is that reasonable, or am I way out of range?

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Can't offer an amount

Will just say that I try to include a little extra when paying someone for such work.

Mark A. Custis

You got the money, we got the time

You sound as if I would like someone to see this and wonder how it got done. Sorry Dan,

Mark



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Wayco Wayne

I have had

nithing but positive experiences working with Do it yourselfers. You have to check their work but you check your own, don't you. I advise and then fill in where I'm needed by the hour. I sure don't miss installing plates and tubing. WW

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Jack Smith

From Buffalo

Bruce,
If you don't find what you're looking for locally, the company I work for isn't far enough for a plane but might require some sleeping arrangements. We use the Wirsbo products in our RFH installations, so are familiar with the controls and injection pumping or mixing valves. You're cost estimate seems about right, depending on how many zones, heating equipment, and domestic water maker. If you need help, please contact me, we would love to help!

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Don't think so

Just giving part of why I think my heat/reefer man is my FRIENDLY heat reefer man. Have LOTS of heat and refrigeration equipment to maintain--two homes & 3 businesses. Includes a Scotsman ice machine nearly as old as me that keeps on chugging.

If you think I'm rich, you're quite right.

If you think I'm wealthy, you're very mistaken.

Whatever gift may have been given me by my maker can ONLY become a curse if I fail to use it as my gut instructs.