How long does it take you?

Jamie_6

Guys, I have been a little high in my bidding lately. (So I have been told) And I think it's because I always factor worst case senereio. when it comes to putting in tubing. About how long does it take you guys to install tubing (suspended / plate / above floor) for an average run. Say 150 - 200 foot lengths?

Thanks for the help,
Jamie

Mark A. Custis

Jamie you have answered

your own question.

YOU, are not the rest of the guys. YOU are special. (Ican't spell very well, even with Dan's new format) You take the time to calculate what it takes to do the job correctly and add alittle for the"FUDGE".

"THE FUDGE" allows the time to do the job correctly the first time, what ever happens.

BE HIGH. Take the money.

Mark

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hot_rod

Tough to say

depends on how much stuff is in the way. If you are first in and there isn't any obstacles 9wires, plumbing, ducts, nails, etc) it is a very quick install with a nail gun or power stapler.

Factor in drilling the ends of the joists also. I generally install all the plates and drill on the first trip. Then sweep the floors and tube the next trips.

A properly equipped roll scaffold will speed the installation if you have "clear sailing"

Same with drilling joists. A good angle drill (timberwolf) with a few razor sharp bits will really speed things up and not wear YOU out as fast as dull bits

Working alone you ought to be able to do 2000 square feet a day when you get a system down, In my opinion.

Grinding nails really slows down the process. It helps to include the contractor and other subs in the plan. Fairly easy for them to stay away from the plate areas, if they know in advance.

hot rod

[Deleted User]

The one correct answer to any hydronic question is...

"It depends!" I think your best bet would be to talk to the manufacturer. They hear from their installers all the time. Then, track your own self to determine what your skill level is. It varies from installation method to installation method, and from job to job. The easiest job (staple down) becomes very complicated if you have to contend with sleepers for hardwood floors. The hardest job (between the joists with plates) becomes even uglier when you realize there are steel magnolia porcupines (nails) in the joist bays!

To begin with, I'd start with approximatley 1 man hour per 250 loop on top of the floor, double that for below the floor. Then track your labor and adjust your estimations accordingly.

I can tell you this, don't expect to make a whole lot of money on your first few jobs on the labor side. No one ever does. It's a learning process.

As time goes on, you get better at what you do, and you learn sone tricks of the trade and start making decent money. Just make sure that you buy Ellen Rohrs books from Dan (How much should I charge and Where did the money go) before you try and figure out how much you should charge. BE prepared for shock, denial and rejection. You will probably have to charge over $100.00 per hour to break even.

Good Luck!

ME

Jamie_6

Mark,

Thank you for the thorough response! I am on my 3rd big radiant job & I know what you mean about not really making $ on your first few. I just wanted to see if I was in line w/ everyone else on his or her man-hours. The last two bids I have done I was told I was a bit high! The problem is that I am letting the builders get involved and I think they are messing up the "selling"!

Jamie

[Deleted User]

Form an alliance.

Make the contractors want to sell for you. When they tell you your price is a little high, look them right in the eye and say "And your point is..."

You get what you pay for (See Dan Foley job for a picture of what you get with the low bidder).

Offer to install a little (bathroom, kitchen) radiant heat in the contractors home at your cost. Let him experience the comfort, and he will stop questioning your price, and start selling radiant for you. Don't lower your price, just increase the perceived value. You're doing the right thing, stick by your guns and good things will happen.

ME

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

Low bid

may get the job, but they may also take too many short cuts. Take a look at Dan Foley's thread below:

"How do you fix this?!!! -DF"

We are going to see more of this as the economy gets worse. Gone are the times when we can price our jobs with decent profit margins.

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hot_rod

Sage advice, ME

you'll never compete on the "low end" Why would you want to? There will always be someone that will take your bid and chop 10%. Many GC's excel at playing this "game" with the subs

Get Dan's "Just add H2Oh" book. It will teach you how to "fill the value bucket" for both the contractor and homeowner.

hot rod

Terry

my factors

I have found that the following factors worked out pretty close on all jobs I've been envolved in. After recording SF's & Man Hours over several jobs I use the following;

INSLAB: 100SF per man hour (tubing install/manifold fab/pressure test)

INJOIST 50-60SF per man hour (drilling holes, pulling pipe,manifold fab, pressure test) : NOTE: plate install not factored in!!!

I would recommmend yuo track all projects - type of install/man hours, & SF's. after a few jobs you will find the factor that works for you & your crew.

Hope it helps!
Terry

Jim_12

I'm one of your average homeowners. I'm price conscious and really hate getting "taken for a ride". But I'm well aware there is no free lunch.

If you are one of the contractors I"ve asked for a quote, tell me what you're selling me. Explain WHAT you're doing, WHY you're doing it that way and WHAT the advantage is TO ME.

I'll gladly pay more when I can see it's in my best interest. All too frequently none of the contractors bother with anything except price and sometimes I screw up bvy not pushing hard enough for answers. That's when the low ball bid wins and I get screwed and have no one to blame but myself.

If you sell yourself by explaining how your work is different or better, you will have an unlimited market.

heatboy

Well said, Jim.

Over the years, I have come to realize that the clients who really grill me and ask questions are ultimately the ones that usually end up hiring me. Which is also why, I want my clients to talk to as many other people as they can. The more they talk to other contractors, the more chance I have of getting them as a client. If someone is not asking questions, they are generally just looking for low numbers and almost always get what they paid for.

hb

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