How do you fix this?!!! -DF

Rich_2

We should have a wall of "shame",Could you imagine his face seeing his work posted !

hot_rod

I got a call a couple of weeks ago to look a radiant job completed last fall. The house did not heat well all winter. Several rooms would barely creep above 50*F during the frigid weather we had in January. I'm not sure
I can fix this one, short of ripping everything out and starting over. -DF

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John Jr

I feel

your pain. It seems we are seeing more and more systems that should not have been done by the people that did them. I hate the people who get mad at us when we tell them how much it's going to cost to fix it and that is if we can fix it!


John Jr

Jackchips

Best of luck

if you take this on Dan.

You should read Dan H's "Interesting Job of the Month". This could make a documentary all it's own.

Mark A. Custis

Dan: You're correct

You can or can not fix this it is your choice.

Just off a great day with good folks and I finally met starch and murph (is it harmfull to ones heath to be with more than one person from pa at a time?)

THINK.

Look at your own pics. Yes you can save this if there are no major leaks.

The question now becomes: "Do I want to pay the price to inform my customer what it will take to correct the job? Bottom line!!

I want you to take the good and expensive job, when your customer says he will pay you to make it work.

If you need help please let us know.

Mark

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Paul Pollets

I'd

start over. Repipe and plate the staple-up; Clean up the near-boiler piping and put the correct controls on. Interesting pipe hangers.

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Mark Hunt

FIRST OF ALL!


I'd really like to know how many bids were taken on this project.

Was it the GC that made the decision or the HO?

Think about all the time and money you spent learning to do it the RIGHT way and some schmucko waltzes in and cuts you in half on price. Then all of a sudden "You're our only hope!!"????

Sorry folks, I pass. How do we know that a qualified contractor didn't spend hours calculating this project only to have it stuffed you know where for the lowest bidder?

If you REALLY feel you need to do something here, follow Paul Pollets advice. START OVER! YOU CAN'T FIX THAT!

JMHO

Mark H

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DanHolohan

This one

is perfect for that.

heatboy

OK, you win!

Dan,

I have seen my share of less then stellar work this Winter, but nothing near this...............ugly. I must agree with the others. Remove it and start over. You are going to idle away loads of their cash just trying to "make it work". Tough call. A little diamond plate might help ;-)

hb

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Mark A. Custis

Paul:

Thats too much work, in my opinion. If nothing leaks just repipe to manifolds. Bring a level. Work heat loss v equipment and make it work.

Top of the head look, and well worth my fee.

Mark

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Edward A. Carey

Another one

Hey Dan,

After you finish that one, I have another one for you to look at.

THIS IS NOT ONE OF MY JOBS!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

I was asked to look it over. I did,,,, quickly.

I suggested ,,,,,, a spicy tomato sauce, and some meat balls, oh, and don't forget the 100% parmesan cheese.

To Glenn,,, don't you wish there was some kind of code that would allow a mfg rep to smack the tech with a pipe for setting those Burnahm boilers under such a mess.

Regards to all
Ed Carey

Edward A. Carey

Another one

Hey Dan,

After you finish that one, I have another one for you to look at.

THIS IS NOT ONE OF MY JOBS!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

I was asked to look it over. I did,,,, quickly.

I suggested ,,,,,, a spicy tomato sauce, and some meat balls, oh, and don't forget the 100% parmesan cheese.

To Glenn,,, don't you wish there was some kind of code that would allow a mfg rep to smack the tech with a pipe for setting those Burnahm boilers under such a mess.

Regards to all
Ed Carey

hot_rod

Thanks...

Thanks for the comments and replies. The homeowner went with the GC's recommendation and used his guy. She did not solicit any other bids. Price was never brought up as an issue.

So far, the homeowner has paid me for two hours of my time to survey the job and has agreed to pay me $1,000.00 to do an accurate heat loss calculation, a design including full documentation, and a bid to do the work. My bid will include a boiler re-pipe and installing extruded plates. I am hesitant to try to salvage any of the work as I am responsible for the finished product. I will keep you posted. Dan, if I get the job, I will tape it as the work progresses. -DF


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Mark A. Custis

You are hit: take the money

And let the old man freeze.

Murph (sos)

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Mark A. Custis

GO DAN!!

I knew you would do that, and are capable of completing the job on time and make it work.

I admire your ability to know good workmanship is worth the price we demand.

Go very gently when you explain what yo will have to do to inspect every loop in the system nad determine its viability etc.

Bully for you. Dan.

Good luck and thanks,

Mark

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Mark Hunt

Dan


You can't salvage any of that.

Sorry if I got a bug up my uhhhhhhh..... you know, but I see this too many times.

Now go do it the right way. I know you know how.

Best of luck sir!

Mark H

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Mark Hunt

EEEEENUUUFFFF!!!!!!


You are overwhelming my capacitors!!!

Is there a death penalty in your state?????

Hunt them down and "correct" them. (The Shining)

I thought I had it bad!!!

You guys rule!

Mark H

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hot_rod

Let's go together to both jobs(G).

It only gets worse from this point going forward. Same end result though - 55 degree F on a cold day. Tomorrow is D-day (that's Dollar day for the GC & homeowner).

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Mark Hunt

STOP IT!!!!


MERCY!!!! MERCY!!!!!

Mark H

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heatboy

Where's........

the extruder? This is some guy extruding PEX in his basement, right? ;-)

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

PPPPPP

[message in subject]

Troy_3

I work way too---

CHEAP! Do these guys actually get paid?

Dave Heath

Before & after retrofit

Another example of what mess is to be found out there.

The homeowner had enough of the mess with the 12 year old radiant (PolyB - NO LESS). Local plumber installed a heat exchanger to seperate the radiant from the Boiler and cleaned up all the piping and moved it to the mechanical room walls. Danfoss ZCP Panels were chosen because of the compact design and the requirement to remove near boiler piping and to reduced time of the install. Disconnecting old system and tying into new system had to be done in 14 hours, as this was done this winter.

Dave Heath

Before & After retrofit

Things you see out there.

The homeowner

Dave Heath

Before & after retrofit project

Sometimes you think you have seen everything.

The homeowner got tired of seeing this mess in her mechanical room. The plumber that took this project on would only fix it if he was able cut the piping on the supply & return connections at the boiler and throw the mess into the dumpster. He moved all piping to the mechanical room walls and cleaned up the radiant loops. He installed a plate HEX to seperate the radiant (PolyB no less) from rest of system. He chose to use Danfoss ZCP Panels because of the compact design and to reduce the labour time when he did the switch over. Because the system was cleaned up this winter( Can get to -35F) he needed to have heat on by midnight the same evening.

Some projects are possible!

John Jr

Take a look at this one

Had a call the other day to come see what was wrong with my radiant heat.

John Jr

Rocky

They probably got what they paid for

Guarantee the contractor who did this gave them a price of about 1/2 of what a competent contractor gave them. Guess who the homeowner went for.

Dave Palmer

Hate to...

insult the mentally challenged but did these "contractors" come to work on the little bus?

Dave Palmer

Hate to...

insult the mentally challenged but did these "contractors" come to work on the little bus?

Mike T., Swampeast MO

ONE good thing...

...at least the insulation I see appears quite reasonable.

Proper Planning Prevents Pi## Poor Performance

bruce pirger

OK...I'm not at all a professional, but an interested newbie.

If someone can grade my "evaluation", would love to hear it.

I assume the biggest problem with this system is the pumps mounted vertically and not horizontal? I see TACO says vertical with the motor up IF system pressure is 20PSI.

Is there anything else obviously wrong? Sure doesn't look pretty, although not completely a mess like some we see posted here. Primary/secondary...I don't like the spacing on the variable injection loops (too far apart), I don't like the primary pump not being right after the expansion tank...I don't like the out of level copper, but that's primarily cosmetic...I don't know where the first 2 and last 2 loop pairs go and looks like two of them are turned off with the ball valves???...look like DHW but can't both be. I'd think the first one would be. maybe baseboard hot water someplace.... Lots of black pipe...not needed.

Does look like Wirsbo tubing though...as I think I can see the expansion rings on the terminations.

So, biggest thing I can see from the pic is the pumps. Correct? Thanks.

[Deleted User]

Why would anyone ever got tired...

of looking at spaghetti like that? Must not understand true pipe art:-)

And I really like what they did with the excess wires off the zone valve motors. It really enhances the whole experience. Adds new meaning to the term "wire loom".

Gosh, I wish I could do work like that...

They won't let us do it like that out here. Really shortminded if you ask me. We just don't get the chance to express ourselves like they do in some places.

Oh well, woe is me, guess I'll go back to being a hot water plummer...

ME

tommyg

Newbie as well, but it seems to me we have some missing components (mixing valves, check valves. It looks like the return is being pulled right back into the supply side. Or am I seeing things?
Any of the pros care to comment on what Bruce and I can see.

bruce pirger

I think the radiant loops are set up with variable speed injection pumps, the first two pumps in the "vertical" stack of four pumps. Then each of these radiant loops has its own main circulator. Presumably there's a controller for the variable injection...to determine the temperature.

I want to say that part of it looks OK...albeit not as wonderful as we typically see posted here.

They have the "thermal step" in the radiant zones...but I'd put check valves in there two, to prevent the ghosting flow you might see, especially with these large separations on supply/returns from the primary loop. Maybe they are in the pump...but then only on one side...and unlikely. Of course there are "issues" with checks on variable speed injection pumps.

But I'm the newbie...Hope we hear from the experts.

Dave Heath

piping mess

Unfortunately there is another install one house over on the same street that is identical to the posted project. The same Home Builder had it installed 12 years ago as well. That one is not fixed up and has been left alone. The homeowner has elected to just have it serviced. Looks like a money pit for sure. As Robert Bean has said before, its more than likely the homeowner did not know what he was paying for, but would have a tough time selling his residence to a second buyer. Proof is in the pudding!!!

Brian

Manufacturer

Dan

Iwould send a set of those pictures to the manufacturer and rep and ask them why they allow their dealers to put in garbage like that.

Good Luck
Brian

Wethead7

The last one did not

hurt my eyes. They all could use alot of work. The plumber remodel was a great improvement. The people that installed these things(calling this work is not possible. more like a waste of parts.) have no craftmanship. The punishment should be shaded or nuttering. This should include any children they have currently.

Mike

Joh n Brickey

This picture depicts a sloppy unprofessional installation and being new to "The Wall" I haven't seen anybody post a "professional" looking job. Something for HO to compare to. I've done some infloor jobs and I have to admit some don't look as good as I'd like. I did a job with primary/secondary piping and 13 zones in a house and the HO calls it his set of "monkey bars" but it works like a champ.

Mad Russian

The problem needs an engineering approach,and I would like to provide one free of charge, if the location is not too far away from my place: Philmont NY 12565.